blonde poker forum

In 1476 King Edward IV granted Stow the right to hold two horse fairs; one on the 12th May and the other on the 24th October. Since then, Stow has been a traditional meeting place for Gypsies.

In days gone by, the horse fairs were often the only chance Gypsies had to meet up with relatives and friends, hear the news and swap family information. As a little boy I used to run wild all day and sit by the campfire and listen to the old folk talk late into the night.

I don't know how many Stow fairs I have left, but it was good to see that my children and grandchildren will carry on the tradition.

Below are a few pictures, some I have captioned, most are self-explanatory.


The first picture is a "perspective" shot, taken before most people arrive.

The second pic is Me with my granddaughter Lisa and grandsons Tom and Ben on the frontboard of my daughter Kelly's bow top waggon. This type of waggon, with a sheet at the front instead of doors is called an "Open Lot"

The third pic is Kelly doing the cooking.

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Dogs and Gypsies just go together somehow. the first pic could have been me 40 odd years ago

The horses. This group are IMHO the cream of a very good crop.

Mrs Red and I did a lot of our courting in a D series Ford similar to the one below (Circa 1965)

Bedford TK

These have a bed behind the drivers seat, I used to keep cage birds on mine.

Bedford "J" type

Me and my mam used to collect scrap iron and old rags with one of these.

Lovely pic's Tom

The campfire. Food is cooked , tales are told, lessons are learned, and a way of life becomes ingrained along with the smoke and ashes.

Some nice "straps"

Great photos Red :)

The carts and vehicles seem to be in excellent condition, some real expertise there and those horses looked nice, I take it they are proper show quality? 

My son-in-law Ben Gaskin, just out of bed and not best pleased at having his photo taken

Grandson Tom.

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Mrs Red takes it easy.

Great pics. Tom.

Those horses have feet like soup plates, and the waggons look magnificent, as do your fine looking grandkids.

I wish I could sit around the campfire and listen to the stories.

My missus would love you as you seem to love horses as much as she does!!!

Great pics BTW and amazing wagons!

Thankyou for sharing such an intimate part of your life (especially the "courting" bit! Top work with the camera allowing us a rare glimpse into another world. BTW wha's going on in 34e wher the men are crowding into the back of a small transporter?

Thank you.

The belly (the unborn foal) of a mare was sold for well into 5 figures. The box contained the much admired mother-to-be.

Cheers mate

hey red, there wasnt an irish guy there selling t.v's was there. If so at the next stow can you tell him he can have the bricks from the back of the t.v back, in exchange for the £100 it cost me. Sob sob

nice pics tom,i dint realise there was still some of the old school still traveling mate.i was tempted to take sharky there but .,.,.,.well ive been let down by so many diffrent events this week im p155ed off,,,,i think i will end up at the folk dancing festival at tredegar park sob,sob,,,,

I've been working just down the road from Stow, the horse fair is certainly a sight to see when driving by. Thanks for sharing the pic's.  :)up

Nice to see those caravans.

Every summer of my youth was spent at my dads knocking about with two brothers whose dad was a builder of those caravans. I was always fascinated by all the gold leaf and artistry on the carpentry and painting.

John Picket was his name, have you heard of him? near shaftesbury in dorset. I've never seen anyone who could drink as much special brew as him.

Yes, I've heard of him. If you want to Google, it's John Pickett with two t's

Tom, what a stunning thread, thank you!

2 questions, I have so many, but just these for now.....

1) What is the "thing" between Gypsies & horses? Are horses a basic "trading commodity", or a sort of currency? Do you just trade them between yourselves, & to what use (other than as maybe a form of currency) do you use them?

2) I assume you have an "eye" for a horses conformation & soundness etc. What specifically do you look for when assessing a horse?

Also, I bet Kizzy is having a ball, all those dogs & people & horses - I hope she's behaving.

Those are simple questions, but as you might imagine the answers are many faceted and quite complex. bear with me and I will try to explain as best I can.

What a facinating lifestyle for your grandchildren.Let's hope the can enjoy their heratige,and be allowed to keep up the traditions, your fathers showed you.

Then you and Mizzy, can slide of into your dotage,safe in the knowledge, you've done your bit.

Wish my two would start producing grandchildren.............................can't wait.

Red - do many (if any)  leave the way of life behind completely? Or is it something when it's in your blood it's in your blood?

Until relatively recently, before motorised transport became widely available, horses were, for obvious reasons, an integral part of the Gypsy way of life. You might expect that with the coming of the Transit van, the horse would have been left behind, there are however, several aspects of the Gypsy psyche that have perpetuated horse ownership long after the need for a beast of burden has passed.

Generally speaking, Romany Gypsies are a sentimental race. They cling tightly to their traditions, trying hard to preserve the old way of life for no reason other than the fact that that is the way it was always done. This trait, more than anything else, is probably why we have survived long enough to be granted ethnic minority status, the criteria for which states that you must share a common and unbroken history, language, and culture.

Next comes an over-developed desire to compete. Owning the best horses is something that Gypsies have aspired to for hundreds of years, the mere fact that they are now of limited use in the accepted sense of the word is of little consequence.

Then there is the privacy/security aspect, Gypsies have an inbred need for secrecy and a pathological mistrust of those in authority. Things are changing rapidly now, but not so many years ago, it was not uncommon for a Gypsy to have his entire life savings grazing in a field or tethered by the roadside. A horse could be worth £40, £400 or £4000, a gorger (non Gypsy) would never know the difference, and it would be of no use at all to a Gypsy who had obtained it by foul means. Pedigree is certified by direct eye witness (a mare can't suckle a foal for six months without every mark on it being noted)  records are passed on by word of mouth.

Horses are still used for harness racing, pulling drays, waggons and various other stuff, but the short answer to this question is yes. Horse breeders use horses as a way of making money, and others use them as a trading commodity/form of currency.

The vast majority of Gypsy horses are run of the mill and don't command huge prices, that doesn't mean we don't take great pride and pleasure in owning them.


More to follow....

I've seen a few harness races on local strectches of road, certainly a sight to see.

Jeez, Red Dog so near yet so far, I live two minutes drive away from Stow!
Nice pictures, although there is as always two sides to every story though, the horse fair brings along a lot of problems for the locals, shops have to close due to shop lifting, my mate had his pick up stolen and a friend who owns a farm down the road had his horse feed stolen too.
Ive never had any problems at all, i also know quite a few people in the area use it as a good time to make an insurance claim!
Maybe next year I can meet up for a beer :)

Thats a lovely answer Tom, though it raises as many questions as it answers.

I do wish you'd write more about Gypsy life - it's a whole different culture.

I heard that Gypsies never have problems with bad debts between each other, or "nipping", paying a debt is a matter of honour, is that true?

Here's one gorger that is loving this thread, cheers for taking the time to post all those pictures Tom.

This is a bit like the "how do you play AK" question. There is no one specific answer, you have to take all the variables into consideration and make a decision based on the whole picture.

I have to point out at this juncture that I am by no means an expert, to continue with the poker analogy for the moment, the Phil Ivey's and Daniel Negranu's of the horse world have that something extra, that uncanny sixth sense that leaves the rest of us shaking our heads and thinking "How the hell did he know that?"

We will start with conformation because that is what would first attract me to a horse. It is also something I can examine with my eyes only, before I declare an interest.

The standard, the blueprint if you will, for what constitutes the perfect Gypsy horse is not written down anywhere. It is a picture that, like the perfect animal itself, exists only inside your head. The trick is to breed/buy one that is as close to that standard as possible.

These are some of the things I would take into account in a full grown mare, (where foals yearlings are concerned, you have to make an educated guess as to how they will turn out, and that is an art in itself)

Remember, All horses are worth a certain amount, these points are used to gauge that value against a non existant, perfect horse.

Hight: No more than 14 hands, ideally about 13.2

Head: small and nicely formed (a big head is a huge turn off) with a good broad forehead and thumb sized ears that sit right on top.

Neck: Short and muscular with a full mane, a double mane is an added bonus.

Back: As with the neck, the shorter the better.

Chest: Deep and round with plenty of room to blow.

Rump: This is a horse's engine. It consists of two huge slabs of muscle and it should look like exactly that, a great storehouse of power and energy.

Legs: Not too long and not too short with as much feather (long hair above the hoof) as possible, but this must be straight and silky, not wiry or curly. Nice even joints, big symmetrical hooves.

Colour: Black and white, but preferably with white predominant and the black evenly distributed. Extra points for an interesting pattern. Like a personalised numberplate, these are instantly recognisable, "The black cat filly" "The wishing well mare" They add value, but only to horses that are also good in other departments.

I'm struggling here, theres so much more to it than this, I will have to be content with just giving you a flavour.

Lets imagine that I have now gone beyond the just looking stage. During my eyes only appraisal, I have determined that she has no glaring defects. No unusual lumps, bumps, scabs, wounds, deformities, discharges or coughs. I have declared my interest and can now do a "hands on" examination.

First I would ask someone to trot her back and forth so that I can watch her move from in front and from behind. I'm looking for signs of lameness or deformity. Then I would lift all her feet in turn, basically to check if she had any problems under her hooves, but also to get an idea about her temperament. If a horse will let you lift her feet (especially the back ones) it's a good sign that she has a decent temperament and has been well handled.

Next I would run my hands over her joints. Infection in a horse's joints produces heat and it is very easy to detect.

I would look into her mouth to make sure she had no serious tooth problems and to reassure myself that she was something close to the age she was supposed to be.

I would lift her tail to make sure there were no genital deformity.

I would wave my hand near each eye until she flinched (to make sure she wasn't blind in one of them) and I would make a noise that she would react to the ensure that she wasn't deaf.

Theres so much more, but I hope that will give you a rough idea.

When I was satisfied, I would ask the price and make an offer. (You must make an offer, it's bad etiquette not to) Our starting prices would be miles apart, but already we would both have a good idea where the other really wanted to be. We would then continue to barter, perhaps for several hours or sometimes even days. Encouraged by all and sundry, we would make offer and counter offer until eventually the outstretched hand of one was slapped by the other and that would conclude the proceedings. We would be bound by a contract more powerful than anything anyone could write on paper.

WOW. Top top stuff. If this doesnt go on best of Blonde I demand to know why.

Seconded, it's stunning!

the Phil Ivey's and Daniel Negranu's of the horse world have that something extra, that uncanny sixth sense that leaves the rest of us shaking our heads and thinking "How the hell did he know that?"

I have had a lifelong fascination with Thoroughbred (racehorse) breeding, & that rings so true. The great Vincent O'Brien could sense that "something special" that nobody else could, & he purchased scores of top class racehorses as foals, using just his eye, & his judgement.

John Hislop, the breeder of Brigadier Gerard (who won 17 of his 18 races against the best of a vintage crop, including Mill Reef & My Swallow) also said in his achingly good book on "The Brigadier" that he looked for "an honest eye". I am not sure what that means, but I guess Tom will.

In your "list" you included checking to see if the horse was sighted. Imagine forgetting that tiny detail, buying a horse perfect in every other respect,  not realising it was blind! Would the Gypsy culture (Gypsy to Gypsy, not Gypsy to gorger) permit you to try & sell it on to another without mentioning the sight defect?

Tom, it must have taken you hours to write that, thank you.

Yes, it's very much a case of buyer beware, and if you did buy something (not just horses) that had defects, you would never dream of complaining. You would "Stand on" and pay the agreed price as per hand-slap contract.

If however, you asked a specific question, i.e. "Is it blind?" and were lied to, or if the seller volunteered information that later proved to be inaccurate, that would be very bad form. If you asked a question, you would expect a truthful answer.

Our society has much to learn from yours Tom.

When you see all the nipping & duplicity in Poker, especially by "names", you must shudder.

Sometimes, but I don't subscribe to a "We are better than you" doctrine. All groups have their good and bad traits, as do all individuals.

If we could all manage to see our fellow man without pre-judging him, (prejudice) I think everyone would benefit.

How to sell dodgy goods knowingly!