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It is no secret that I think Frank Lampard was one of the most overrated midfielders England had. I never was a Frank Lampard fan but even I was more than happy to admit that for the last 3 seasons he's been top class for Chelsea and for two years he's been great for England.

Now pretty much all of a sudden he's getting booed for England. I'm not really sure where it's come from seeing as other players in the team have had dips in form also. (Beckham had a 5 yr dip in form without one boo!)

It's happened to Barnes, Anderton, Crouch and Beckham in recent years (I don't feel any of those were justified either tbh) and pretty much all of them have come good whilst playing for England.

So why does it happen? It's obvious that Lampard has the quality to play at that level. No doubt a guy of his class will score for England sooner or later.

I've heard the "Lampard doesn't turn up in big games against big midfielders" argument a lot of times before but I'm not convinced. If you look at Chelsea's record vs the top clubs and against some of the top teams in Europe their results are hard to argue against. Yes, Lampard does have the odd quiet game vs other world class midfielders but if his team is winning...

He hasn't dived, cheated, had a go at his teammates, committed a terrible backpass that cost us a goal or come out like a Billy Big Bollocks and started wearing a sarong in front of photographers.

He wasn't playing at Old Trafford or Anfield, it was at Wembley.

I find it sad. I dont think he should be in the first XI if Hargreaves is fit but I don't feel like he should be booed.

Has he really been that bad?

One word: scapegoat

England fans demand success, when they don't get it they look for someone to blame. Off the pitch they blame the manager, Eriksson or MaClaren.

On the pitch they need someone to vent their frustration with while the game is in progress - more often than not recently most England players under performed / under achieved and i think that because Lampards play over the last few seasons with Chelsea has been better than most of the England players to the fans it looks as though his performances are the worst based on what they have seen in the last few years.

 :o  >:?

when has he done a job for england?

internationally i think hes been consistently appalling, he does a competent job for Chelsea but it's a job that Gerrard does with Superior proficiency and prowess.

he cant play alongside Gerrard, just doesn't work, theres just no place for him in the team and consequently he looks uncomfortable at international level.

the fans know this, they can see how his sub standard performances are impacting upon the team and they want him out, they're right to boo, its how they express they're frustration and displeasure at an underachieving international squad who's problems have manifested themself  primarily in the disjointed midfield.

He was voted the national team's best player by fans two years in a row.

Be honest though - England haven't had an outstanding player for a good few years now so the title of "best" player is hardly a top accolade.

The team is void of creativity and is left with nothing but hard grafters - if they don't graft hard then they are made to look ordinary. England need to find players capable of unlocking a defence in a blink of an eye otherwise they will continue to struggle and underachieve especially under the current regime.

 ;carlocitrone;

I'd say Gerrard and Rooney are fairly special players. 

When was Rooney's last outstanding performance for England?

The reason why England players get stick is because they don't turn it on when it matters for their country. Michael Owen never gets booed because he always seems to actually achieve things in an England shirt. Lampard never does. All we ever see are long range shots which are not even close to the goal. The one against Brazil nearly hit the arch.

For club yes, still yet to prove it for country.

then why was he vote englands player of the year for 2 years running if he was that appalling????

i agree lampard isn,t doing it for the england team at the moment. maybe it is time to change things a bit though apart from his shooting against brazil i thought lampard and gerrard worked well together.

this topic isnt a thread to slate lampard its about booing ANY player in your national team.

personally i think its very wrong and from very ignorant fickle fans some of whom cannot disaassociate club football from internationals.

when any player pulls on a england shirt regardless of his club he becomes one of me English!

I dont support England so I dont care  ;ifm; but I think Lampard for Chelsea is one of the best midfeilders in the league Lampard for England is just average.

People say he cant play with Gerrard but I'm not sure thats entirley true. When he 1st came on to the international stage he was superb and gerrard was playing then. I would personally play gerrard as the attacking midfielder and have hargreaves or carrick sitting in but as I said I dont care.

England fans and footy fans in general are pretty much fukwits..

Leeds fans were booing a few players this season, makes no sense to me..

a small percentage that infest the majority, just the same as hooliganism

People who pay decent money to go and watch so called "quality" players deserve to get their moneys worth, England's recent performances have not been good enough and someone who has paid £250-£400 to take the family to watch has a right to vent his frustration at those players he has paid to watch who are not performing to the best of their ability.

Admittedly I only see about 50% of the matches, but for me the main thing that has been wrong with the England setup for the last five years is the total lack of 'hard grafters'!  

Sure, a lot of the players do a great job for their club, but for whatever reason they have not produced for the country.  If Lampard - or anyone else for that matter - was to be seen working his cajones off in every match (as any player graced with the shirt damn well should do) then it wouldn't matter if we lost every game - no-one would boo him.  English fans sometimes have unrealistic expectations, but on the whole they respect players who work hard.

As for the Estonia game... no doubt it will be yet another pathetic, half-arsed game of football, which we will probably win 2-1 and then have to listen to the lazy sods papping on about how we've 'turned a corner' and got things 'back on track'.  Estonia - no goals, no points in the group so far.  With the standard of players McLaren has available to him, if he wants anyone to think we might qualify for (or win) the Euro Champs then that team has to beat Estonia by six or seven clear goals, if you ask me.

Maybe Lampard doesnt play that well for England as he is not getting paid £100k+ a week to play for them. I beleive,and I have beleived now for quite a few years, that without a doubt international football comes a very poor 2nd to club football.

i think youl find that lampard covers more ground than any other player regularly for england and chelsea. isnt that running yer cajones off?


things might not be going right for him at the moment but to accuse any player of not giving 100% when wearing there national shirt is b@ll@cks.


like in all walks of life just because the desired result isn't achieved it doesn't mean its because of a lack of effort!

I agree.

Just to qualify that, I also think that players are instructed not to get injured, etc. when playing for their country.  Or, as is often the case, they don't actually play the international in the first place (how many times has Ferguson said that players are injured only for them to miraculously recover in time for their next club match?).

tell that to john terry, david beckham, wayne rooney and stevie g that to name just a few

Must be bullshit then.

This was the point i was trying to make, England do not have the creative players like Ronaldo for Portugal, Zidane for France or Ronaldinhio for Brazil. Instead England's strength is when the game is played at a breakneck tempo that other teams cant keep up with, constant bombardment and pressure of the opposition to unsettle them.

So when the England players put in the hard graft and play the game at a non-stop tempo then they can look like a very good side - however if they dont put the graft in it appears as though they are not trying

Beckham and Owen are two players that you definitely can't criticise for playing well for their country.  They seem to shine with the threelions on their shirt.  The others you mentioned always play with the same intensity (from what I can see), and want to win for club or country.

BUT, there are players that don't play as well for their country - whether it be every game or the occasional game.  Some just don't care.

;D

like who?


i refuse to accept that anyone pulling on a national team shirt doesn't care!
especially a player with over 50 caps. im sure he woulda been found out by the powers that be long before then

maybe, just maybe - Englands so called "world" superstars just aren't that good.................

They look good when playing against the likes of Charlton (:'() and Watford week in week out but when it comes to playing against the best in Europe and the World then maybe they cant live up to the hype.

Yes English teams to well in Europe - but then how many "English" teams have more than 50% English players?

Did you see the Andorra game? 

hit the nail on the head!

so get behind what we got instead of booing andd they may over-perform instead of seamingly under-achieve!

Man u - Neville, Brown, Ferdinand, Smith, Rooney, Carrick, Hargreaves, Foster, Scholes, (and some other non-English players from the British Isles).

They won the league as well, so are the strongest team (over the course of a season).

no i didnt actually but are you saying there were players walking around deliberatly not trying?

hargreaves and foster didnt win the league  ;whistle;

A valid point, but they're English (well sort of!) and it's still 7 players without them.

roughly the same as chelsea and a hell of a lot more than arsenal!

Man u -

Neville - too old for international football
Brown - not good enough (yet maybe)
Ferdinand - good enough (when he can be bothered)
Smith - Not world class standard, well down the pecking order for country selection
Rooney - good enough (yet to prove it on a consistant basis)
Carrick - monkey jury still out on this one
Hargreaves - only just signed
Foster - not good enough for country
Scholes - retired from international football

So of the United squad only two could be classed as good international players, one would never make a world 11 (Ferdinand) and the other needs to start playing well for his country on a consistant basis to become a world great (Rooney)

Maybe, just maybe - Englands so called "world" superstars just aren't that good...........

It looked that way.  Honestly did.

The first half display was the worst I've seen by an England team in years.  Playing a team who had conceded about 20 goals in their previous 4 qualifiers, we didn't even get a shot off for the first 13 minutes!  That happened to be a free-kick and the ball has not been seen since it was so far off target. 

We spent most of that half passing the ball sideways and backwards in our own half.  Against a team of semi-professionals.

The players were not trying - or they'd all been hit by a mysterious bug that brings on lethargy and indifference.

Football fans are fickle...always have been always will be.  Hargreaves was being booed before the last WC, couple of good performances and he is accepted and they go looking for another scapegoat.

I dont think Gerrard has played well for England either. Lampard probably hasn't done it for England since Euro 2004,when he was outstanding,certainly head and shoulders above Gerrard at that tournament.

IMO the problem with Lampard is he has played too much football over the last 2 or 3 years,the bloke needs a rest.He should have been given the summer off and he might have been back to his best next season.

Definitely true.  Beckham, Hargreaves, Crouch, Lampard, etc.

Not a fan of booing my own team though.  Might shout some friendly words of criticism (not usually family friendly though), but the mass booing can't be productive - can it?

Can only be counter-productive imo.  But it happens all the time both and club and international level.

lol I am sorry but if some idiot pays 250-400 to watch footy esp England they deserve a shit game to whine at, mugs.

It could be worse, could have watched one of the other home nations for free. Now that's really torture! ;)

There is one significant difference between the Chelsea Lampard and the England Lampard and that is quite simply what the two different managers ask of him.
Whilst Mourinho maximises Lampard's potential and brings the best out of him, Mclaren stifles his ability and tries to change the way he plays week in week out, much as Eriksson did.
Various England managers have done this over the years and will continue to do so because they feel superior to club managers and believe they understand more about the player, despite the fact that a good club manager knows more about his individual players than anyone else.
And so long as there is a wedge driven between club managers and international managers regarding availability, it will continue to happen.

Gerrard is asked to play out of position by England Managers and does a great job where ever he plays. Rooney, Hargreaves, Beckham, Cole, Carragher, etc have all been played out of position in the past and are expected to put up a good performance.

Lampard is playing in his favoured role, ahead of Gerrard and is falling short. thats Lampards fault, not McLarens

still shouldn't be booing him though

I didn't say 'playing out of position'.
Mourinho allows Lampard the freedom to express himself. He boosts Lampard's confidence with his man-management skills.
He told the press Lampard was the best midfielder in the world - how do you think that makes Frank feel?
Mclaren shackles Lampard, he gives him extra duties which only serve to supress his natural instincts.
Every individual player needs to be handled differently from a pyschological point of view. Some need a kick up the arse, some need reassurance. Week in week out a top club professional knows exactly what is required of him. Then he turns up for the England gathering and is asked to perform different tasks.
Ask Mourinho why Lampard under-performs for his country. Better yet, let Mourinho have Mclaren's job.

Mourinho for England? no thanks

If Lampard, or any other player can't motivate and reassure himself in an England shirt then he shouldn't be wearing it. McLaren isn't going to build a team around Lampard, being sure to only ask him to do what he's comfortable doing. Not sure exactly how McLaren is stiffling Lampard but International football USUALLY requires players to perform a different role to their club football.

gerrard has played the majority of his liverpool games in right midfield so when plays in central midfield for england hes out of position

If you are going to select a player then ask him to do something he's not comfortable with, then why select him?
As for players required to perform a different role to club football.....
Ronaldinho, Maradona, Gascoigne, Lineker, Rush, Hurst, Pele .......

you'd rather have a manager like mclaren running the national team than a manager like mourinho?

 rotflmfao rotflmfao rotflmfao rotflmfao

to be fair lampards nowhere near the class of those you mentioned

I agree, was just making a point though. :-)

It's OK, Crouch is playing tonight.  So the boo-boys can target him instead. 

boooooo

Standard.

Not 'like,' I'd specifically rather have McLaren than Mourinho.

is a post like yours not flaming?

can we not have a conversation without ridiculing someones opinion if it differs to yours?

but yours is ridicule-able

Great debate.

I was a boo boy for Barnes, If I remember rightly I was booing as he stepped up to take the free kick he scored against Holland in 93.  I booed because I thought he was undeserving of his England place, was living on the goal he scored in Brazil and was keeping players out of the team more deserving of that place.  That was my right as I see it.  I payed the price of the ticket, I am allowed to boo, I was young, I cared, so I booed.

I feel the same about Lampard, would I boo today - No.  Nobody cares if I boo in my living room. As it stands I wouldn't pay to see England.  So as I see it I don't have the right to boo.  For those that do pay to go tonight, let them boo if they want, its their cash.  

Also I feel its unfair to compare the booing and grief some have had in the past with what Beckham went through.  I am no lover of Beckham, and I think what he did in the heat of the moment was idiotic and immature, but completely underserving of what followed.  Having said that I can't think of much in life that was deserving of what he went through.

That's a bit harsh on Lampard. If he's world class I'm sure he can add one or two defensive duties to his role like all central midfielders should be able to.

As Adam said if players can play totally out of position for England then what is the problem with adding extra duties to Lampard's role?

IMO it's a dip in form, nothing more.

not here it's not

Blonde is supposed to be a flame free zone.

Lampard had a better game tonight. still by no means at his best but steady.

Beckham MOTM?

But im not flaming - im ridiculing :D

same thing

thats your opinion :D :)

my opinion is that it shouldn't take too much effort for everyone to talk to each other politely and respect each others different opinions rather than laughing at / ridiculing / flaming.

a few manners is all I'm asking

say please and i might think about it !!

please

Thankyou dear AdamM

long may it continue

Beckham MOTM.  Good game from Crouch (silly booking though, not that he'd be playing in the next game anyway), and nice goal from Cole.

Otherwise comfortable until that shot at the end that Terry cleared off the line.

Good win that we needed (and knew we'd get barring a disaster).  Good result between Russia and Croatia too.

When I was younger I would never have dreamed of booing a footballer, they were hero's...

Whether its because I am now a similar age to them, or I have lost respect for their attitude, or disillutioned with the amount of money that is in football - Now I would boo a player if I saw fit. (Usually linked to a complete lack of effort, eg Albert Luque, or stupidity, eg Craig Bellamy)

Certainly where I watch the majority of my football you won't find a loss being greeted by anything but boo's, even if its only half time!

anyone and i mean anyone who would rather have mclaren than mourinho as a manager deserves to be ridiculed imo.

thats not flaming its just laughing at someones lack of football knowledge or someones stubborness to acknowledge a managers talent because he manages a rival team.

seriously do u not think mourinho would get more out of what players england have on offer than mclaren?

There is a bigger picture than ability as a manager and reputation in decideing who you would prefer as England manager, that is what I think Adam was talking about.

i) Okay, Mourinho has the trophy's in the cabinet to back him as a top class manager. No question. But I also believe that any number of slightly better than average managers would have won all the chelsea ones. Porto was an unbelievable couple of years, I dont know if he bought or inhertited those four or five top quality players but either way their win in the CL deserves massive credit. However, does anyone know who was the Greece manager in 2004? Is he one of the best managers in the world? IMO he's effort to get that team to win the Euro's is bigger than Porto in the CL.

ii) I don't like the way he has Chelsea play football, though as an international manager where he can't really have free reign over the players he brings in he may set england up differently.

iii) I don't like Mourinho's TV personality, or the stuff he comes out with after defeats/poor performances.

iv) He's not English

Probably more too boot - I get exactly what your saying ITB, but you also need to look outside the blue box.

I don't like Mourinho. I dislike how when things go well it's because of his greatness but when things go badly it's a conspiracy. It has nothing to do with Man Utd / Chelsea rivalry. there are plenty of rival managers I respect a lot more than him. he's a bad beat story teller. he seems to be devoid of any humility. McLaren comes across much better to me.

no-one should be ridiculing anyone on Blonde. that's one of the underlying principles of Blonde. We should all be able to express any opinion, safe in the knowledge that we won't be flamed (laughing at someones post is flaming). you appear to think you're exempt from that principle. I'll just have to rise above it and show better manners than than.

i do look outside the blue box and include many managers who are a class above mclaren just like mourinho.

in fact its down on record in these forums that i think sir alex ferguson is the greatest manager of my lifetime.

is that the words of someone who only sees things blue?

im sure you will adam im sure u will

I'd put Bob Paisley and Ferguson on a par.

yes paisley was great and certainly in my top 3 but ferguson has done it for a much longer period and has had to reassemble a squad on numerous occassions down the years.

cloughy of course was a great manager, such a shame he never got the chance to manage a really big club or england. but what he done particularly at forest was a great achievement.

Good post.

But does it matter if he inherited the Porto team or built it? He made them winners when they weren't before. I do think other managers could do what he's doing at Chelsea but the Porto success was his whichever way you look at it.

It is a myth to think they had a few good players though - their whole team was good. I'd bet that most people know nearly all of their team from back then if they were listed now. The only reason they were seen as a small team is becuase it was that success that made them household names. Before that season they were nobodies. They had some first XI though.

i think some are missing the point here im trying to make.

im not trying to claim that mourinho is the best manager ever (though one day he may rival the greats but some way off yet) im claiming that he is a better manager than mclaren.

his record in club management is a class above mclaren and also his tactical awareness and ability to make the right change if things are going wrong have been highlighted on many occassions this season.

this seems to be one of the main problems for the recent two england managers that when things are going wrong they are not able to change things around to change the game. either not tactically aware enough or not brave enough one or the other.

this was my main gripe regards eriksson that while a match was underway he might as well have been watching on tv at home as far as the contribution he made to it during the 90 minutes.

and my point was simply that I wouldn't want Mourinho as England manager.

Mourinho would fit right in with England. We always make excuses for being knocked out of tournaments and never admit we weren't good enough....   ;ifm;

On a serious note though he's about a hundred times better than McClaren. So were 14 other managers last season. (So is anyone who's ever played Championship Manager for that matter)

The national team does need a better manager without a doubt. I just don't think Adam (and many others) would like Mourinho to be that man.

Personally if England starts winning tournaments I dont care who it is.

This will happen at some point, it just probably won't be within either of the two managers mentioned careers!

My grandchildren have something to look forward to...

This guy decided to apply for the middlesborough manager's job, based on his extensive "football manager" experience...

http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~kritip/managers%20job.htm

Classic quote......

"I've taken the opportunity to gain extra qualifications away from football including gaining a degree in geography and archeology which I'm sure will provide many transferable skills that will assist me in running a football club. I hear Mark Viduka has a significatn and considerable interest in 12th century Egyptian pottery which would be an excellent bonding point for the two of us if I were to be successful"

PMSL!

I hear many lower league clubs have had applicants for people with CM experience.

By the way does anyone know if it is true that Big Sam used to have close sommunication with the CM scouts?

But the Scots aren't meant to dislike England?  :dontask:

Ah, so it's because we're bad beat whiners? The ABE thread all makes sense now. ;)

NO - Pre-game chirpers, THEN bad beat whiners (even when you went in behind), well your press is anyhow - I try not to let that sour me on the rest of you ;)