blonde poker forum

I popped down to Southampton tonight for my one and only attempt to qualify for the Grand Prix in Walsall , only 24 runners , 4 qualify , i have one rebuy , no add on and make the final slight chip leader , 2 players go out on the first hand and one player now has a quarter of the chips .

Two rounds of blinds went round and both times in his small blind the chip leader just flat called the elderly lady to his left , turned and looked at her and gestured he was happy to check it down which they did the first time , the second time she rivered a flush on a T T T 2 K flop and bet after he checked and he flat called and flipped over his K , the player on my left was saying how he thought this was a joke but then this happened.

There was another lady on my left , on her BB of 1200 the first three players passed , chip leader flat called , one limped and the SB called , pot was 4800 , flop was 8 5 4 with two hearts , the lady in the BB asked how much she could bet and was told up to 4800 , she bet 2000 , the chip leader raised to 8000 , passed to the BB she flat called leaving herself 1600 , so with 20,800 in the pot and his opponent obviously on a draw the chip leader looks straight at her and checks before the turn card is dealt , a blank falls and she checks , before the river he again checks , another blank , she now thinks about bluffing with her last 1600 and her missed nut flush draw with the A9 of hearts then checks and shows her hand , he turns over AA !

I was sitting there in disbelief and said to the player on my left in any other card room this soft play would be penalised , he agreed but no one else said a word , one round later and on her BB the chip leader raised , the lady who should have been out called for her last 300 and turned over Q5o to his AK , she turned a Q and doubled up , the guy on my left now went all in with 77 and lost to AQ that hit running diamonds , he was not a happy camper , one round later now fuming i find AJ in FP , she had 1100 left , i raise and i am unlucky to find KK in the SB but by now i couldn't care less , the other lady goes all in on my BB for her last 1300 with 77 and i find 83o , she doubles up , then in the SB all in , there is a limp then an all in raise uncalled , i find myself in the same situation the lady was in , i have Q7o v AJo , he flops an A and i finish 7th .

Outside i meet the other guy and he is still angry at the way this guy had soft played his AA which kept the BB in and  stopped the dynamics of the table changing and may have caused him to play a hand he wouldn't have had otherwise , usually i would have as a strategic play passed the AJ as i had enough to take one round of blinds before committing but that is not the point , the fact is i had stopped caring as i was disgusted at the plays i had seen and the fact it would appear to be normal here.

I was in a no lose situation , qualify and i go to Walsall , don't and i go to Paris Friday then to Lyon for three days to see Mathildes sister and her husband for his 40th birthday so now i have vented my anger i am a happy bunny .

Thanks for letting me have somewhere to do it .

ACES


PS Avoid Southampton !

The last time I played Walsall a well Known player raised for 4000 on the turn and then passed a 9k pot to an all in that would have cost him 200 more to call

What did you say to the player(s)

A few players had a moan, end of story

This is fekking bollox, this happens far too often not to be noticed, and time after time i see folk getting away with it, especially your point Red about Being majorly pot commited and folding!

Shocking plays!

PS aces, your always welcome here, mate. As Tikay says its more people like you that i want to hear there tales from the big table, hang around mate.

Dave

it's just not on, i'd have called the cardroom manager over. It wouldn't have made much difference in the first instance but might have stopped the others.
Gotta say Red i've never seen anything even remotely like that at walsall, obviously it happens though.

I have to admit, it's pretty rare at Walsall

the only thing i've seen really is the "same village" crew not willing to chop a comp when they have chips and i don't but on another occasion willing to chop when one of "them" is billy low stack.
I never do deals with them anymore 8)
Does that make any sense? i'm tired ???

Simon,

Welcome back, & thanks. We have missed you. A lot.

The Southampton malarky is cheating, pure & simple. Hard to stop,though.

But you have more chance than the rest of us. You are amongst THE most senior of players on the Circuit. You have clout. You have to lead the cause, & we'll all support you.

Simon,

you won't have seen it but I described a few weeks ago an equally blatant example of softplay elsewhere in a qualifier to the same event

I have been promised a meeting with people both from the cardroom itself and head office subsequent to this, but this has been postponed three times

I am not though giving up, this meeting will take place. I have no expectation of changing anything about my particular circumstance, but principle demands that I take it further.

Would it be ok if I showed them your post to add evidence to my argument?

I don't understand why it's cheating?
Everyone plays a different way dont they, what's he doing wrong? He won the hands, I don't see why it's not end of hand, on to the next one.

there's 20,800 in the pot, the lady only has 1600 left, the guy's chip leader and checks turn and river with AA....

no flush card has come. He is not being fair to the other players by not trying to eliminate the lady from the competition

i would reply to this post but I'm on my way to Southampton - I've heard that they soft play the women. Not sure what it means but I'm on my way...... ;D

Hehe, good luck Dingdell - see you Saturday, then!

Is it cheating?, asks The Colonel. Well we can agree that it's colludiing - definitely, it's patently obvious. And colluding at poker is the same as cheating. In my book, anyway. Soft play, same village stuff, is a dreadful thing, it raises the hackles of most players. Quite right, too. In my opinion, he hastily adds.....

One word:  DISGUSTING! , another: CHEATING! , one more: PATHETIC!

I absolutely hate this type of behaviour - i am a man of principal and in that same situation or even on the bubble i would take my own father out of the competition! - thats the game - you play to win and for fun and nothing else!

I am fed up with fighting this losing battle and there are too many tales to recount on here and too many times to mention where i have been disgusted by the behaviour and attitude of players towards soft playing, chip passing and collusion.  I am affraid the attitude of casinos and card rooms and their managers is appaulling too but often they are powerless to do anything about it as it is not technically against the rule of the game.

Sadly, Tikay right - there is very little you can do other than try to educate people that this is bad for the game and against the etiquette of poker.

simon, you right to be appaulled.

So what are you saying Junior, are you for it, or against it?...... (These kids DO get excited, eh?). So you'd knock out PokerGirlie, given the chance?

I'd knock up PokerGirlie, given the chance

Did i not make my feeling known? - i thought i was the most opinionated person on planet poker.

ok... just for Tikay (who i know is getting on a bit and probably misread my post)  I freeking HATE Softplaying colluders!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

collusion/soft playing/same village = cheating barstewards. Something should be done about it.
Me and another blondite know each others games inside out but will still try to outplay each other at every given opportunity. There has been a few tourneys this year where we have got all our chips in with very odd hands. To play him any other way than I would anyone else would be cheating, simple as that. I know tikay and julian are close but they have taken each other out of several tournaments this year.

It is cheating, pure and simple.

Congratulations Simon for not decking him  ;D

Hi Tightend

Please feel free to use this article , i wrote it exclusively for Blondites so if it helps that would be great.

ACES

Will do, thanks.

I intend posting on the subject in due course.

Can I throw a spanner in the works??? I'm gonna play the devil's advocate here for a second or two. I don't wanna piss anyone off but this is all rather one sided, and there should at least be someone looking from the other side.

HEHEHEHEHE.

There was a straight on the flop. And Simon only talks about the flush and the cards being No help for the flush. Also It's a Satellite Qualifier. The aim isn't to win the competition but just to make it to the last few positions etc. So I always find the final tables are a lot softer on each other, and don't play the same way as they would in a normal final. Not that I'm making excuses for soft play, nor for Simon feeling angry and upset at what has transpired.

Perhaps the guy thought he was beat or didn't wanna jeapordise another 1600 to the pot. Another 1600 he could use to greater effect later.

It's a fine line and Simon obviously feels it was crossed, and in all possibilities it could well have been. Unfortunately as Junior says there isn't much we can do. Other than checking hole cards etc. But we are only supervisors, who perhaps don't understand the fine intricacies of trap checking, feeler bets, etc. So whilst we might think they should have raised etc. WE could be making the wrong move.

It would need a great deal of debate to sort out some clear rules. Because what might be soft play to some isn't soft play too others.

Remember it's just a point of view that I've tried to get across, and maybe it's not mine. But I felt this thread a little one sided.

Yogi 

yep, with you there Yogi - I was thinking and about to write the same kinda thread.... not knowing much about the guy who made this move... or lack or move... he might just want to sit the rest of the hand out, maybe thinking she is playing with a straight / trips.... he might not feel there is much value in trying to gain an extra 1600, but is more than happy not to lose an extra 1600....
looking back at the betting it probably wasnt too obvious to the guy that she was on a draw - she made a 'probe' ish sized bet which could be seen as supsicious after then flat called a big raise without any flush draw pot odds.  I'd be happy if i was him (given it's a qualifier) to check the hand down with the betting which went beforehand - of course you're always going to call if she does bet, but a dollar not lost is better than a dollar won in this scenario might be his feeling.... I'm not sure this is as clear cut as some blantant cheating mentioned on here before, and i think it could be hard to enforce any particular 'rules' against this.  again, just an opinion - i can clearly see why Aces is pist off about this and i probably would've stuck her all in myself, but i can see where the guy might be coming from.  he could also have done it just to annoy everyone else!!... great way to tilt other people... would there be any rules against this - i.e. you deliberatly soft play in the hope to tilt others and get others eliminated, knowing the person you've left with a short stack poses no real threat?  it is a game of deception after all...

Good replies from Yogi & rivered - we NEED to see both sides of the coin if the argument is to have validity & integrity. I'm gonna sticky this thread for a day or two - it's great stuff.

And Kudos to Aces for his post, that's why we missed the big fella.

this, and the post that followed it, are interesting counterpoints, thanks

If you are going to pass a very large pot when it will only cost you a fraction to call because you now you just can't win it, don't you think it would be a curtesy to the other players to pass your cards face up?

Referring to Red's example rather than Simon Trumper's, Stewart Reuben in his 'How Good Is Your Pot Limit Hold'em?' book  gives a hand where he held QQ on a AQJT3 (no flush possible) board. His opponent bet £25 into a £2,075 pot. Reuben folded  ??? and awards that action maximum points.

He says that 'to imagine my pot odds of 80 to 1 mean anything would be ridiculous'.

I couldn't pass here, and Rolf Slotboom didn't think much of it either if I remember his book review correctly. But Reuben has a reputation for being a really aggressive player, so perhaps it isn't always clear cut.

yep I agree red-dog.  maybe there should be such a ruling - pot odds of greater than 10-1 on the river laydowns must be shown to the dealer / TD only to check for collusion or something along those lines....
i don't think that happened tho in the example first given on this thread - looks like both hands were shown...

I'd expect to see that Red. Happened in a game I was playing in - the big stack said - "naw he's hit it - pass" then showed - the other guy (a friend who he played regularly) had indeed hit the nut straight. It was a good fold - but I'd have been unhappy if they hadn't showed their cards - they did so no problem. Just a good call based on knowing a player.

Think about this , would you check a made full house then flat call a bet on the river when your opponent has 3000 left to your 25000 and also the other pot was over 20,000 before the turn , she had 1600 , he had 25,000 , this is an automatic bet on the turn if she checks but he checked out of turn twice . He clearly did not want to knock these two ladies out , this is totally unethical especially when there are 7 left , 4 go through and three are short stacked and if he played correctly they could have won a seat .

As i left immediately i don't know what happened next .

ACES

He checked OUT OF TURN twice?

DEFINITELY grounds for disqualification, as it's clearly obvious as to his purpose.

Look at it how you like. This is cheating.

I presume this was a dealer dealt final?

Some of the Southampton dealers do the big Grosvenor events, which if they let this go on makes it even more unethical.

Soft play is very hard to argue against as Yogi says at what point is it soft play and at what point do WE in OUR opinion call it as such.
If you havent got the nuts, then there is always an arguemenst against it. I have yellow carded 2 players last week for what I deemed to be soft play. A (respected) player who had got the bollox to stand up and call me over accused 2 players of doing this, whilst the cards were still on the table. The dealer was asked and explained to me how the betting went. All factors were taken into consideration, and I deemed this as "soft play". Both players were warned that if either player was seen to "soft play" in the future, however long, they will be barred from the cardroom.
The other point is checking out of turn, not only was this checking out of turn, this was checking before the card was dealt. Quote Simon, " so with 20,800 in the pot and his opponent obviously on a draw the chip leader looks straight at her and checks before the turn card is dealt " This indicates that there was definately "soft play" happening as the pot was so large. Checking out of turn is an offence, "checking it out" is CHEATING!!
BOTH players even the one who did not check out of turn would be warned, the offending checker may well get DQ'd.

dik9 - you yellow carded two players for soft play?

Wow! A big up to you - SIR!

At last, someone prepared to do something about it. I can hardly recall any other such action.

I really hope your Cardroom - The Broadway - gets the success your bravery deserves.

Lets large it up for dik9. Our Hero of the Week.

Thank you Tikay. LOL But as I say, who am I to decide whether they were playing together, if I was any good at the game I would be a player!! LOL. Seriously though there were a number of factors, not just the cards, which caused me to make this decision. And it wasn't taken lightly, it really played on my concience (for about 4 seconds).

i once palyed in a final 3 handed with a pal of mine and matey boy, i was severely short stacked and my pal was chipleader by a mile.
after a few rounds 3 handed i get a text message, i look and it's my pal from the other end of the table!!
it said something along the lines of "go allin on my blind and i'll fold", i actually thought this was funny for reasons i could explain but suffice to say i didn't believe him, anyway i think my NEXT hand was AJ and i went allin, my pal called and knocked me out!!
It was funny ;D
though no cheating or colluding was even remotely happening.

Out of Turn checking.

Naughty naughty, I really shud read these things better.

:)

Yogi

ditto hehe

Well I finally got around to registering - not bad in 6 months!!

A question for the cardroom-manager-types out there:

Recently playing final 2 tables of a live tourny, as we get down to 2 tables of 6 what started as a suspicion started to become blatently obvious.  3 locals were giving each other a walk whilst combining a continual assualt on the other 3 blinds at the table.  Realising I was on a table of death, I took my only course of action which was to shovel it in and try and break players to get to the final 9.  I managed to do this, but clearly having to take more risk in doing so than I would like.

So, as a cardroom manager, how many rounds would that pattern have to be maintained for you to be satisfied that you could make a soft play ruling with confidence?

Simon - got you, at last!

Welcome to blonde, I'm so glad you joined. Your early comments to me personally (at Luton, I seem to recall) were greatly appreciated, & I was hoping you'd come on board, you have much to offer.

Simon, welcome to Blonde. at last. I welcomed earlier on your own thread!

did this happen in a GP qualifier? If so, please let me know, as I am compiling information to approach Grosvenor after seperate episodes...

post more

Richard P

Richard,
On my own thread?  Did I have one of those??  Blimey.

Anyway, it was at Luton, but not a GP qualifier.  I went on to have more trouble at the final too when there was a nasty fold to an underraise (where even the 3rd stooge was embarrased) and I pulled the dealer on it.  Was told it would be watched.  I confronted them about it a few weeks later before the start of a tourny and their best line of defence was "it is worse elsewhere."

Tikay,
Glad to see things have been going from strength to strength, surprised that you even remembered our conversation, let alone taken anything useful from it!!  ~:  Not sure how much I will have to offer as I am fast turning into a poker hermit - I am not getting out there and playing as much as I would like to this year, but we shall see...

All the best,

Simon.

Remember the conversation? Of COURSE I do.

Adjacent the cafe/bar area, near the double doors at the top of the stairs, you came up to me & introduced yourself. I recall thinking, "wow, he came & spoke to ME". Truly. These days, of course, I charge for introductions........

down to 2 tables, after the break a very stong warning to players that we want a fair game and  if there is any more collution then they will be thrown out of the competiiton. after a player was checking  a full house out to keep his friend in, just one example of very poor sportmanship.we know its hard to prove but the man in question never failed to raise when he had a hand against any other player as he was  chip leader

It also happened last night in Walsall one player had trips on the flop and his mate had the nut full house it was checked down with the nut full house last to speak, someone must have told the cardroom manager because he came and told all the players should it be seen to be happing again the players would be removed from the game but like you say its very hard to prove.

Did you qualify Jim? (Past winner of this comp, we're not worthy....)

A thought.  Tactically, not knocking out a particular player late on in a tourney could be advantageous.  If you feel there are players at the table that could damage you, it may be worth not knocking out the weak player and giving them a chance to knock out the stronger ones for you.  Giving you a chance to then play heads-up or short-handed against weaker opponents.

In this example it doesn't look anything like this, it looks more like he's trying to sweeten up the ladies, although you never know.

Similar to "The Weakest Link" they always get rid of the weak players at the start to increase the prize money, then near the end they dump the stronger players to get a better chance heads up.

I think we have to be carefull, i was accused of collusion at Bolton. It was last 4 and i made a bet on the river of 3/4 the ss's chips, he moved in and i passed 7 hi.

People on the rail then said we were collouding, funny thing is i had never met or played him before! And infact my friend had just been knocked out!

So you think that by leaving a weaker player in, he could knock out a strong player but he couldn't knock you out?

I wish I had enough ability to to be able to to afford to not to take a player out when I had the chance

I wouldn't do it, I just wish I was that good

Of course it could backfire, and chances are the stronger players would take the player out anyway.  I'm just thinking of possible reasons for not knocking someone out of the game.

i will sometimes keep a player in if taking him out reduces my chance to steal.

If i am last 3 of a MTT say and i have a cl over the 2nd guy and 3rd guy only has a couple of blinds. I do not see the value fo calling the all in. Better to grind down 2nd so when we get hu its a certantity

Yes, and my reply was a bit pedantic, sorry

Hypothetical situation warning (no resemblance to any situation living or dead in this thread) !

In a bubble situation a big stack may prefer not to knock out a player if it means he can continue to rob blinds / limps with impunity because no-one else is prepared to risk being bubble boy?

I type too slowly!

When you are playing for seats(i.e Grand Prix) there are going to be occasions which look like collusion more frequently than a regular tourny where everyone is playing for 1st.
I was watching a qualifier for St Kitts on Bet fair the other night.  3 left with 2 seats available.
1  with 190k
2nd with 50k approx
3rd 45 k approx.

The guy in 1 st position didnt really need to play a hand to get a seat, but he did.
He tried to knock out first the short stack, which doubled up. Then twice the other guy, losing all the coups.
The guy who was a big chip leader was now billy short stack for attempting to KO the 3rd player.
In the end he did manage to claim a seat but it was very doubtful for some time.

I am in no way condoning the specific  incident that ACES found himself in, but in Grand Prix type of qualifing events, the accusation for collusion is not so clear cut forsomeone to call.
If you were in a big chip advantage going into a final,and you had done the hard work on securing your seat, would you want to risk it by continually tackling the short stacks.

Like I said though Im not saying the Southampton guy was right.

why do some you persist in trying to make  excuses for people who cheat?? the player at walsall last night should have been asked to leave the cardroom for a penalty 15minutes ,i am sure he would think before doing it again..

I am in no way makingut if its true whats  excuses for anyone, I wasnt at Walsall last night so I cant comment,
 try re reading my post , what I said was, there isnt always a clear cut case of collusion in these type of events. The whole way you play these type of tournys is different to a regular tourny. That is what im trying to say, not condone cheating.

Or maybe you were not re ferring to me.

i know,i can,t see your point ..what if it is a clear cut case like last night, what then.

i cant comment on this incident as i wasnt on last night. i have to work though the weekend.

in definate cases of chip passing the players involve should be DQ from the competition, as I KNOW IT said its still very difficult to prove.

If what has been posted is true, then of cause some action should have been taken. Why didnt the dealer do something.
Ill tell you why,because more than likely the dealer wouldnt have realised, due to their lack of knowledge of the game.
One of my biggest gripes is when a player has to police the table, that is  the dealer and supervisors job.

What I was trying to convey was, unless someone has the total nuts, just because they check or pass for a reaitively small bet, dont always jump to the conclusion of collusion.that is NOT always the case in these type of tournys. The strategy is totally different to normal competitions.

Saying that, we can all tell soft playing when we see it.

i know,, point taken,,.but he did have the nuts last night. but you  have got something there about the dealers. allthough the dealer last night is an excellent dealer he chose not to say anything.

this is the grey area, the guy in question did NOT have the nuts, he had a full house Aces over 4's.
He can always claim he was scared of the nuts, no jury could convict.