blonde poker forum

Something happened to me in an online cash game yesterday, that made me consider something I haven't before:

Having been playing well and building a bankroll, I moved up to a $800 max buy-in NLHE cash game on Mansion (4/8 blinds).

I bought in for $400, and had the right cards at the right time to make it up to $1800 in a few hours.  As players were coming and going, 7 of the other 8 stacks were between $400 and $800 because of the max buy-in of $800.  There was one guy with about $4500, who I think had been playing the same table since Easter.

Here's what happened - I got into one of those hands where you are destined to lose a lot of money, with the chip monster, and sure enough I donked off the whole $1800 in one hand.  I got around to thinking:

If you are in my situation (before the carnage hand!) does it make any sense to have $1800 on the table, when only one of the other stacks has more than $800, and the exception is the guy who has you covered?  Obviously, if you are short stacked at a cash table, you are reducing your potential winnings in one hand because you can't take the maximum bite from another stack.  However, when only one player has the chips to double you up in the event that you flop the quads/whatever then would it make more sense to take some chips off the table (ie. stand up, wait, rejoin the game)?

I think if this arises again I will do that - my reasoning is that I chose the $800 max buy-in because that's about the maximum loss I can stand to take from one horrific hand without having getting stomachache... so the $1800 felt bad, even though it was chips I hadn't brought to the table myself.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this, or any advice?

DH

personally i would have sat there with the 1800 but avoided playing against the daddy without a premium hand

and certainly not over playing draws etc on the flop although calling with draws if the odds were there and the implied odds were huge

It depends on the skill level between you and him and also who has position on who.

is this notion known as going south?!

He was two seats behind me, and the fateful hand was:

DH:  Jd Jh

CL:   Qc Qh

Chips went in on a   Td Tc  Qd Jc board, after he check-called his flopped house.  He hadn't re-raised me pre-flop, so couldn't put him on queens... cest la vie.  Maybe a better player wouldn't have gone broke here, but never mind!

It wasn't the hand that troubled me, more the wisdom (or otherwise) of being so overstacked in a cash game...

DH

no, thats in a live cash game where someone pockets some of their chips, i saw someone get smashed to pieces by 3 guys after doing that in a private game about 6 years ago.

but the same idea applies, you take chips off the table to minimise a loss.

you cant do this online, most sites you cant cash out of a table and then sit back down with less for a certain period of time

This is true, but that's what I meant - cash out, go get something to eat, come back later.  Or join another 4/8 table right away, depending - the same players are sitting at most of them anyway!

I'm not sure why it's not allowed, I can't see how it's wrong or disadvantages anyone.  As long as the number of chips you have available for a hand is clear to the other players when the hole cards are dealt, and does not change during the course of a hand, I can't see the big deal?

yeah its a big deal if you bought in for $400, played it up to $1800 and then all of a sudden cashed in $1000!!! your freerolling and it's not fair on the others.

plus like flushy said if you dont feel theres a class disparity between you and the bigstack you want to get full value when you double through him dont you?

i never understand why players feel like this in a cash game, once i double/tripple up in a cash game you couldn't drag me off!

It's the best feeling in poker IMO, being chipped up at a cash game - it's what you aim to do at the start of a game.

I would only leave if I was too tired, or felt that I had a negative expectation at that point.

I think this is the most important point, because of the inflated stack sizes. It can -ev to be playing if you are at a disadvantage to the big stack as you are in playing extremely deep against an opponent who can bust you.

It may be worth if you oop to the big stack to stand up and then sit down with position on him.

Ratholing?

theres a difference between ratholing and going south, you can never go south online.

If you done either in a live club dont bother going back and i genuinly dont see the benefit to any half decent player of ratholing on line, which is difficult to do anyway because of the time restrictions sites out on you buying back in.

I had to look ratholing up and found
Ratholing is a poker term which refers to illegally taking money off the table[3]. For example, If you are at a casino table and you win $100 dollars in a hand, and you wish to take out that $100 from the table, but keep the rest of your money at the table, that would be called ratholing, and it is not allowed

But i prefer this definition which describes a lot of posts of mine
Ratholing is a term used to describe a conversation or process that has deviated from its original productive purpose into a generally unproductive but long and winding detour that eventually comes to a dead end. The original discussion purpose may be to agree on a course of action. However, if one or more people rathole into a specific point of the discussion then the discussion stalls with no actionable outcome.

And finally i hope you didnt mean this definition!
Ratholing is prison slang for smuggling or hiding items in the rectum!!!!

if your a ev+ player surely you want as much on there as possible? Providing you've got the right bankroll

That's a fair point Mariners - if the amount on the table becomes a disproportionately high percentage of your bankroll, then it may be a good idea to leave.

I am intrigued by all this talk of having more money at the table than you sat down with. It is something I have often seen happen to other players at my table but have yet to experience it myself.

I think this is the point I was concerned about...  Initial bankroll of $2,800, so I sat down with $400 (maybe too much?  BR management isn't my strong point), or 14% of my BR on the table and vulnerable to being broke in one hand.

Having worked it up to $1,800, BR would be $4,200 - of which 43% was on the table and vulnerable.

As for the comments on the defenition of 'ratholing' - I did feel like telling the CL that he could stick my chips up his ass after the hand.

In seriousness though, I understand that sneaking chips off the table during a live cash game is wrong, and I understand why - but I still think that in the above situation, if I choose to leave the game for half an hour before coming back with less chips, I don't think I'm being really unfair on the other players, I'm just effectively saying "Look, I had a good session and won a lot of cash.  I'm gonna go cool it for a while, reassess my bankroll, and may come back for another session later." Surely that's not frowned on... it's not like I won one huge hand to quadruple my stack, and then got up and ran away!

Post of the decade

As soon as your stack at the table becomes a significant part of your bankroll, it can affect you and stop you playing your optimum game - you might start playing scared.

If that's the case, the best thing to do is take your winnings and leave the table. 

If you're comfortable with the money you have at the table - play on.  Really in a cash game you should be prepared to lose your whole stack at any time.  If you're not prepared to do this, get up and walk away.

So anyway, if you do leave the table, how long do you have to wait before you can re-join with less money?

I dont think theres one set time online, i think it varies from site to site.

There are a zillion players on line who sit down with the minimum, make say 50% and leave. I hate that.

However, sat with $1800 after buying in for $400 - if you choose to leave the table and take a break I wouldn't give a flying fxxx if it was 'frowned upon'.

I often think running stop losses and market price sell orders at the poker table, like you might as a day trader, would make most people a little more money over the long run.

I know that on the odd occasions where I double or triple up at a cash table I tend to start to overplay hands (big stack tourney style) or tighten up cause I don't want to give up any gains - anyway, definitely lose my way - would be better off getting up and having a break. I guess the whole game is about self awareness really

I was playing 1-2 om/8 on party the other day, and someone had over 1k on the table after winning a pot, only to leave and reappear with 200.

If this is uniform across all the party cash games (don't play enough cash there to know but I would imagine it is) then the time at party you need to wait before leaving and rejoining the table with less is pretty much the same amount of time as it takes flushy to eat a piece of food that is sat in front of him.

Now I think about it, I'm pretty sure I saw Tuff Fish having a rant at someone on his table for going south at party so it probably does apply to all cash tables.