blonde poker forum

Last weekend after getting knocked out of the ladies comp I decided to play the £15 freezeout. Not being a regular live player I dont really know the etiquette and sometimes wonder if it is obvious that I am an internet player and maybe I am doing things I shouldn't.

Example 1

The game has not long started and im in BB with KK, 5 or 6 limpers round the table and I raise it up to 200 (first question - was this too weak a raise). One of the limpers, a VERY big VERY drunk guy says "Why would you do that? Why not just let us see the flop. I turn a bright shade of pink and say because I have a hand. He mumbles and moans for a bit and calls along with 1 other. Flop comes down Ace high....s**t.... so I put in a bet of 600 (again I think maybe too weak) and he says is that it!! and raised me up to 2k. 2 choices now allin or fold so I folded. He probably didnt have the ace but i couldnt risk it so early on in the game. So the question is..is it wrong when playing live to raise preflop early in the game or was this guy just a windup merchant?

Example 2

After being put in my place I was basically blinding away, winning a few small pots but nothing substantial. I get moved to another table but by that time I have about 10 BB and im thinking I need to push but im absolutely card dead. 2 rounds of the table and still nothing. Im on BB and a young lad UTG puts me allin which I fold to and then say to him im going allin blind on your BB (jokingly), so im chatting away to him and have still not looked at my cards when a voice from the other end of the table says "did you mean what you said about going allin blind?" I thought about it for a minute and then said yeah go on then. This chap was fairly short stacked but he had more than me so in the chips go...he turned over AQ and I had AK wooohoooo. He laughed when he saw my cards and said gh :-)

After that I had a good run of cards and built up quite a nice stack but matey boy wasnt fairing so well. So im on BB and someone in mid position raises me up, matey boy goes allin, a quick chip count and im thinking its a value bet as im already in the pot and say to the guy "since its you..ok". What I actually meant was if I lose I would rather give the chips to him but he took it totally the wrong way. "What do you mean..since its me. Why would you do that ?" "Im going to double you up I say turning a bright shade of pink AGAIN. So cards are on there backs, mid raiser has 88, matey boy has A9 and I have QJs and yes you have guessed it..a Jack on the river saw him packing. This guy was absolutely furious and I felt like a complete and utter s**t but I played the hand as I would have online, it was a value bet but I was left feeling sooooo bad and wondered if maybe you are not supposed to do that sort of thing live? It kinda put a dampener on the whole game for me but I am sure he must have been delighted to know I went out 17th paying out at 15.

So did I do anything wrong?

I also learnt that you are not supposed to take the cards off the table which nobody had told me before  ;D

I'm not a very experienced live player (or online for that matter) but it doesn't appear that you put a foot wrong apart from having the misfortune to share tables with a couple of k**bs!

I take it blinds were 25/50 in the first hand?  If so i would be inclined to make it 300-350 rather then 200 preflop.  With 5/6 limpers it is important to get the pot HU or 3 handed and a 200 chip raise is unlikely to achieve that.

But i agree with your play on the flop.  You have to c-bet it, and then when he r/r's i wouldn't want to commit my tournament life with just KK in this spot so early.

what are the blinds?




why do you think these are your 2 choices?

Interesting Post Suzanne. Ignore the mouths, play YOUR game, YOUR way!

The difference between Live & Online play is massive, but it's taken for granted that the transition is easy. It's NOT

I've done several "Online to Live" "teach-ins" (not game play, just etiquette & procedures), the latest being on Saturday at The Broadway. It is astonishing when Online players play their first Live Game, it's so different. Persevere.

In the 2005 Deauville EPT, I spent 2 days on the same table as Elk. He's won zillions online, but he was a completely out of his depth "live", he Passed out of turn repeatedly, & had not the faintest idea why it was wrong.

One of these days, some bright spark is gonna start doing "Online to Live" Lessons. Hmm.....

PS - Oh, & no, do NOT remove your cards from the table. It sets you out as an Internet player, & inexperienced, straight away. Handsome is as handsome does. Handle yourself, your cards, & your chips properly, & you look the part then.

lol, you dont like flops then :)

At 25-50, 200 is plenty. It makes no mathermatical sense to bet more. In the first level of a comp, watch for those who, first to bet, make it 500 at 25-50. Mark them down as easy meat.

With 5/6 limpers i disagree.  Making it 200 you will be going to the flop 6/7 way, not a situation i want to be in with KK tbh.

tony,

what is the basis of your mathematical sense? I mean, the core of math is to price people out, and making it 200 at 25/50 blinds with KK prices them in, given the amount of limpers, with enormous implied odds, so I cant see any reason why it is illogical to bet more.. in fact its probably illogical to bet this small.

Well, each to their own.

Wit KK, early doors, I WANT some action. Mathematically, that's what I am trying to achieve with this hand. So yes, I want to price them in. Winning 4 or 5 BB's is no use to me at this stage. If the flop comes bad, fine, I'm outa there. OK, KK with 3 callers it ain't ideal, just be wary, that's all. I see it time & time again, some laddo makes it 500 at 25-50, everyone passes, he puffs out his chest as he shows his (surprise surprise) AA.

Lots of ways to skin the poker cat. Gimme some action if it's early doors. When the Blinds get big, now we use the heavy hammer.

i tend to agree with you in a sense, when u raise with KK and get callers, each caller adds to your expectation preflop, the problem is that if you are too foolhardly postflop, it easily negates your preflop equity. I know that personally im not good enough to know when im beat when 4 or 5 people call preflop, my poker skills arent that good, so i'd rather raise more, reduce the reverse implied odds against my hand, and give them a chance to make a serious error when the flop comes down.


Im intersted to know what you think a bad flop is for your hand, because if you are raising small and getting callers, I wouldnt even know where to begin as to what a bad flop is. I wish you posted more in here though tony, as you always give people a reason to think, and that is surely the main purpose of the PHA board.

regards

J

I can see you arguement Tikay but i disagree also. This is £15 freezeout and you are unlikely to get many to fold out there hands with a 200 raise. KK plays optimally in a 2/3 handed pot, plus you are losing value from your hand preflop by making it too small. You have to find the perfect amount to get money in the pot in ratio to the chance of you hand winning/ gaining chips from other player. 200 doesn't do this i think 300-350 does.

Also you give massive implied odds to everyone, i will for example play a pair to this raise and a no set, no bet post flop style, mathematically this is bad for you and good for me. You are allowing people to play perfectly against you.

I don't feel qualified to Post n here much, that's the truth, but I have very strong views on much of what I see in here, though not the conviction to voice them.

I don't play flops well, either, but the thing is this - we have One Pair - that's all. As with AA, so many folks go bust becaise they thnk their 1 pair is unassailable. It's not. Let it go if the pressure rises.

A bad flop for KK?

Any A - obviously. Any Paint. Two Paint too - QJ, QT, JT. AS Gary Bush always said, if there's plenty of pre-flop whizzing & popping, beware an all-paint flop, someone is likely to be "very adjacent", & two pair is likely. I don't wanna see J-J-x or Q-Q-x either.

OK, so we get a no-paint "safe" flop - say, 4-7-8 - safe as Houses. NOW I look out for the telltale signs of a set being out - the check-call, or Rivered Check-Raise. We MUST be able to pass KK or AA. And boy, I'm good at Passing. World-Class, maybe.

My apologies, I did not see or realise we were talking a £15 comp. Yes, I bet more here. Amazingly, it works back to front at this level - I may even lump it all in, & sit there looking fidgety.....

Yes the blinds were 25/50 with so many limpers I thought my 200 raise was enough to say I have a hand take me on.

I did not want to raise too high because I was hoping the flop would be low and if it wasnt then I could bow out without losing too many chips. The ace on the flop was what I did not want to see but I think 200 is a safe bet with KK preflop. Dont forget this is in the first stage of the tourney and I really dont want to commit myself with KK in a  freezeout early doors.

My question was more..is a raise in that situation out of order as the guy seemed really peeved off that I had done that?

Apart from playing charity, blonde and this womans tourneys this was actually my first "casino game" as in I knew no one and didnt have a clue about what was the norm.

Thats why I am asking.

Any comments on the second situation please.

why do you think these are your 2 choices?
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The guy was drunk as a skunk and it was pretty obvious he was making a stand. I dont think he did have the ace but a flat call just was not an option it was all or nothing

Do you mean whether you should have called in this situation (purely from a poker point of view) - or whether you somehow did the wrong thing in terms of etiquette..?

Of course, you did absolutely nothing wrong in terms of etiqutte. They're your chips to do with as you want. Absolutely no reason for anyone to get annoyed with you for calling... And he's got no right to get angry at you for doing so. You're getting short on chips, decide to gamble and treble up. That's all there is to it.

It seems to me there's two completely separate bits to your concerns about how this tournament went. There's the "physical" rules, if you like, about not picking your cards up and so on. But you shouldn't confuse these rules, the etiquette part, with the poker part. Doesn't matter whether it's online or live, you call when you want, raise when you want, fold when you want. Don't be intimidated by other people into doing anything else. If the odd idiot gets angry at you for doing something they don't want you to do... well, they've probably got more to learn about poker than you have.

Good luck next time!

Ah is that what that was? I thought it was just an excellent opportunity for you to assign embarassing nicknames to us!
"Halifax" hated being called it for the whole day, so I went with your other option of 9,6 man!

Ah, bless Halifax. What a cool guy he was! Big, too.....

I always assign nicks to everyone I meet, often where they come from, especially if foreign.

Suzanne.

1) IGNORE his comments. They are junk & meaningless, & there is no etiquette or convention saying you should not Raise early doors.

2) It is YOUR money you are playing with. So, within the Rules, you do what you damn wll like with your chips. When I get told to "check it down, there's a man all-in" I sometimes bet deliberately just to make the point. "Look sunshine, I play MY way with MY money. OK?"

I would tend to agree with everyone here. It sounds like you were simply unfortuante to have an undesirable at your table.

I too only recently played my first live event, but had the disadvantage of being "taught" by tikay on ettiquette etc prior to starting!

Seriously though, I would not see anything wrong with playing how you like, betting what you want to. Hell if you wish to bet all in preflop with 27o then they are YOUR chips to throw away, not anyone elses. Afterall, if you make an error or a poor bet it is likely to be others at the table who benefit. It's not your fault if their hand isn't good enough to call a raise with no matter how big or small your bet is.

I played in that comp too Suzanne and we had a guy at our table raising every second hand anywhere from 500 to 1k when blinds were only at 25/50.  The other lads at the table didn't look pleased, but the only comment anyone made was, 'So much for a friendly game of cards.'  Didn't stop him raising every second hand, in fact he went into overdrive after the comment was made, but we caught him out within 10 minutes.  

I had QQ and raised it to 250 guy next to me calls, aggressive guy re-raises to 750 and we both call.  Flop came all rags and he bet 1k, I re-raised another 1k because I KNEW he hadn't hit.  Only problem...while it pushed the aggressive player out, the other guy who was in the pot called the re-raise.  Lucky for me, he was a laid back kind of guy and we played it gentle on the turn and river...he had KK in his hand.  He was worried I had either AA or a set and I KNEW I was in trouble with me QQ.  Lost the pot and was badly short stacked after that, but 'aggressive guy' chilled from then on because he'd been found out and the rest weren't as quick to fold to him anymore.  

You know how to play the game.  I was sat at your table long enough to see it.  Your only problem was picking up the cards off the table.  Not a big deal in my eyes, but for your own protection, it's better if you don't.  Anyone with a friend stood at the rail behind you can see what you have and signal to their friend on the other side of the table.  That was the first thing I thought of when I saw you pick up your cards on the night.  Was going to say something, but didn't want you to feel uncomfortable.  Take no notice of the moody/aggressive players.  I reckon they do that to throw everyone off their game anyway.  Play it your way and ignore the apes. :)up

Suzanne,

don't worry about it - I can't see you did anything wrong in the way you played.  I think your biggest problem (and I recognise it because I'm the same) is lack of confidence in your game.  If you're not experienced playing live and end up in a big 'local' game like that, it can be easy to feel that the rest of the people there must know better than you.  Fact is you were probably a better player than the majority on your table.

I had a situation in an online STT the other day.  We were three handed, and I was in the BB.  Short stack UTG went all in, and SB flat called.  I had a nice hand - I didn't want to check it down three handed, so I raised to try to get the SB out of the pot.  SB started calling me an idiot, saying I shouldn't have done that, we should have just checked it down etc.  My response (which I seem to be using a lot at the moment) "I'll play my own game, thank you".  I went on to win it and typed 'gg' to SB guy who'd finished second.  He typed a response, but it's not to be repeated here :D

Just play your own game, and don't worry about what other people say.  I know it's harder in a live environment, but experience and increased confidence will help.  There were 150+ runners in that game, you don't finish 17th by playing badly.  (and did we not clean up at the cash table afterwards?!?!)

Was DELIGHTED when you both showed me the chips you'd gather in just a few hands at the cash table.  Was giggling away mad when they asked you to come back and play some more...poor lads thought they'd win em back off ya.  Great news to hear you continued the demolition.  Meant to ask how you'd got on when you took them up on the offer, but the Coronas started to kick in.   :cheers: ;whistle;

Hi Suzanne

Making the transition from on-line play to the live game can be difficult at first. Of course the most notable difference is that your opponents are sitting around the table with you and this is something that people can initially find quite intimidating. If your intention is simply to have a bit of fun then rest assured the gameplay and etiquette of both formats of the game are identical.

However, if you are hoping to become a winning live player there are a couple of points to appreciate right from the start.

Poker is a game of information. Players utilise the information available to them in order to make decisions and decide upon the best course of action. On-line this information includes such things as bet amounts, betting patterns and opponent's previous actions. Of course when you sit down at a live game all this information is still readily available but in addition you are also greeted with a wealth of new information to digest and process. Body language, posture and any comments players make now start to play a part in the information fest on view. Your job as a live poker player is to withold as much information as you can and thus make your opponent's decisions as tough as possible.

In example 1 you raise with K-K, and quite rightly so. The drunk guy (hey, you're gathering information already) protests "Why would you do that?" and you announce "Because I have a hand!" Be aware that there is no obligation to respond to questions like this with honesty. Telling him and the rest of the table that you have a hand is not in your best interests. Avoid giving free information away like this. Just smile, remain silent and allow people to draw whatever conclusions they want. If you do feel compelled to reply it is good fun and psychologically smart to answer a question with a question

Q. "Why would you do that?"     A. "Why didn't you raise?"   

or

Q. "Why would you do that?"     A. "Are you upset because your hand is weak?"

or even better

Q. "Why would you do that?"     A. "Would you like to buy me a drink?"

In example 2 you tell your opponent that you intend to raise blind. So once again you have let the table know what your intentions are and the other players quickly latch onto this free information.

Secondly, it is important to be completely impervious to the other players and what they think of you when playing live. If your raises are frustrating the other players then this is something to be embraced. You have paid your entrance fee and your job is to make life as uncomfortable as possible for the other players. You are not there to ensure they have an enjoyable evening out....quite the opposite in fact. In time you will thoroughly enjoy the annoyance you cause the other players. This is a very good thing. At the moment you are sensitive to what they think. My advice is to work on loosing that sensitivity as quickly as possible.

At work, with family, amongst freinds and in almost every other aspect of life there is quite a rigid social protocol to abide by and you quite rightly care what people think of you. Poker is different. Poker is fun. When you sit down at a live table it's time to cut loose, let your hair down and do your level best to screw every f***er in the building. This, you will come to realise, is rather liberating.

Good Luck!

This took me by surprise.
In part I suppose because I had never noticed (or thought about) a lack of TK posts in HA.

If you aren't qualified TK, then that rules out 90% of the rest of us.

Your views are obviously going to be different to a LAG poster, but certainly no less valid for that, and it adds to every discussion to have different perspectives. More HA posts please!!

Everyone laughs at my Poker tips & strategy!

I'll give it a go, but seriously, I'm very much an "oddbod" as to views on how the game should be played, very much out of step with "normal" thinking. Like, don't think you can learn the game by reading poker books, because you cannot......

 ;scarymoment;

I also can't bring myself to read printed hand histories, I fall asleep before we ever see a flop.

You don't do flops anyway do you...?

Seriously though, I think everyone would appreciate your input - just as I look forward to reading the advice of Totalise, Mantis01, Smart Money, Pab and a whole load of others (yes, even Flushy), I'd also look forward to reading what you have to say. 

Also, it'll beat having to read about trains...

Thats the same guy Im talking about Laxie, if you recall we were both on the same table  ::)

Yes Claire and I both did rather well on the cash table  ;cupcake; and if I lived closer I would have loved to go back hehe

Excellent post Mantis. The guy kind of took me by surprise when he said that and I couldn't think of anything witty to reply, as you said I should have said nothing. I have found it quite hard and very different playing live but I am definately getting better. I am now looking for tells though Im not very good at spotting them yet. I am also working on trying to find the killer instinct I have online. I find I fold lots of hands that I would normally play online and I dont steal enough blinds for fear of having a tell. Its like Claire said, its lack of confidence which hopefully will all fall into place with more experience.

Im with everyone else Tikay lets see you contribute to the PHA threads...we want to get inside your head  ;)

I suspect that probably why he doesn't post on here much :D

suzzane when new at a casino some of the old hands will try anything to get into your head and get your money

first time i played live was in aberdeen where the guy on my left took around 26 rebuys and tried to talk my chips unto the pot

when we drew for final tablei ended up in the first ante (we played 2 antes off the button in those days ) with 3 of my 8 chip in the pot first hand at final and another 3 the next hand i decided to call all in (he was now sat 3 to my right) from his cut off raise
with a small PP did he tried to intimidate me again after i won the pot then as i left the casino with £800 and he was trying to make up for his loses in the cash game he tried it on again trying to get me into a HU cash game with him
i had a chuckle in the card on way home (its hard to intimidate and ex squaddie)

in walsall a well known local tried to do the same to me the first time we met but again i cashed while he didnt

both players have been fine with me since i think they just want to use any edge they can and if thats making a new player uneasy they will try it

personally i tried to make the new players comfortable so that they come back again and again

I found the whole experience facinating, it was the first time I had played out of my safe zone and just studying all the characters round the table was worth the £15 quid in its self. I had a guy on my right complaining about how tired he was as he had just got off a plane from Vegas and what a let down it was to be playing a £15 freezeout at his local after playing a $1500 in WSOP, check me out on cardplayer he said...i think i was supposed to be impressed (did check him out and he won 4k so good on him).

What I liked most of all was that the majority were friendly and up for a bit of banter. For some reason I thought it would be more serious and not much fun, Im glad I was wrong.

Now all i need is a reliable babysitter and WSOP here i come.

Don't go there - you'd be horrified!

Ahhhhhhhh, if that's the guy who was throwing the trash at you, I wouldn't be losing sleep at all.  He reminded me of the guys who spout off online.  When I see those types (online or live) I'm thinking, 'Someone either needs to see a shrink or up their daily dose of meds.'  Don't sweat the likes of him.  There were a few other nice ones at the table, so try to draw them into the ole chat and banter.  You might find they'll back you up next time they see the other guy acting the maggot. 

As for folding the hand...considering who we're talking about, it was a hard lay down.  Fair play to ya.  At the end of the day, your chips are there for you to do what you like.  If you don't think he has the A, then in like flint.  But do you want to risk YOUR chips to show the rest of the table what he has?  Nope.  Wait for the better hand and you won't have to do much after because guys like that will do the betting for you.