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Poker Forums => The Rail => Topic started by: TightEnd on June 27, 2007, 11:52:55 AM



Title: Showing a bluff
Post by: TightEnd on June 27, 2007, 11:52:55 AM
Of course I never bluff, well never successfully anyway, but I got into an interesting discussion the other night


When should you or should you not show a bluff?

ever? to certain types of opponents? at certain stages of a competition?


what do you have in mind when you decide whether or not to show the  3s 4d when you have pushed  Ad Kc off a  Kh Qh Jh board or something like that? 


Title: Re: Showing a bluff
Post by: matt674 on June 27, 2007, 12:17:27 PM
I think i may have only done it once or twice (bluffing that is)!!

If there is someone on my table who i think is on the verge of tilting then i may think about it as the bluff may well send them over the edge - but then the rest of your table is picking up free information so i'd have to be 100% certain that it would be worth it in the long term aspects of the tournament.


Title: Re: Showing a bluff
Post by: Graham C on June 27, 2007, 12:17:34 PM
I don't ever show bluffs either, but I am curious as to when I should be prepared to show.  My theory is that you're more likely to get a caller next time but good hands don't come along all that often so I probably don't really want one. 


Title: Re: Showing a bluff
Post by: fearisthekey on June 27, 2007, 12:21:14 PM
Of course I never bluff, well never successfully anyway, but I got into an interesting discussion the other night


When should you or should you not show a bluff?

ever? to certain types of opponents? at certain stages of a competition?


what do you have in mind when you decide whether or not to show the  3s 4d when you have pushed  Ad Kc off a  Kh Qh Jh board or something like that? 

Showing a  bluff gives off quite a lot of information about you, there are quite a lot of players who just don't have the game to ever make big moves, you've just shown the table right away that you are able to. At a table made up mostly of LAGs and SLAGs, it's often best to appear to be Vicky Coren rather than the Devilfish, let them choose the wrong moment to push you around.
This information bleeding always has to be taken into account and weighed up against the benefits of tilting your opponent, or, centrally, advertising an image of some nutter, an image that you are now aware of and will take into account when interpreting their reactions to your play.

That said, there are situations where you may have to bluff, repeatedly, just to show the bluff, repeatedly. If you are up against a very solid player and the game is going nowhere, you have to just start taking the ****. 4 or 5 bluffs, most people will crack. Just move back to solid play yourself and let him donk some chips.


Title: Re: Showing a bluff
Post by: fearisthekey on June 27, 2007, 12:23:26 PM
I don't ever show bluffs either, but I am curious as to when I should be prepared to show.  My theory is that you're more likely to get a caller next time but good hands don't come along all that often so I probably don't really want one. 


I agree, however good starting hands come up so rarely that, in tournaments especially, you will still steal many blinds as people are more scared about getting in the ring with the table nutter.


Title: Re: Showing a bluff
Post by: spruce goose on June 27, 2007, 01:25:58 PM
i think at times showing a bluff is a really good move. i remember the final table of the 1st ept when stevic showed the chip leader robak a massive bluff and it tilted him,the rest is history as they say.


Title: Re: Showing a bluff
Post by: Ironside on June 27, 2007, 01:35:48 PM
in a live game i will show upto 30% of my hands but i am selective in which i show some are bluffs some are the nuts its all depends on my image at the table and the image i want to give off and the gear i am in or if i am changing gear stack size is another huge consideration as is my opponants and there abilty

as for them getting a read off me with the free info half the time i have no idea what i am thinking so how are they going to know what i am thinking


Title: Re: Showing a bluff
Post by: matt674 on June 27, 2007, 01:41:53 PM
as for them getting a read off me with the free info half the time i have no idea what i am thinking so how are they going to know what i am thinking

technically not true, 99% of the time most people know what you are thinking at the poker table - its never anything to cards however usually ladies and poles........


Title: Re: Showing a bluff
Post by: doubleup on June 27, 2007, 01:54:31 PM

Online bluff showers are usually insecure attention seekers "Oh look at me I'm a great player".  They usually do their money in my experience.


Title: Re: Showing a bluff
Post by: Ironside on June 27, 2007, 02:01:29 PM
dave i show less hands online that i do live (apart from blonde comps) but i still show bluffs just as much as if i sit down at a really tight cash table i will splash 50-100 of a buy in flashing cards (normally its PLO8) and getting the talbe playing really loose so also thinking i am really crap (which i probarly am) then by the time i am sat with 4 buy ins in front of me they have worked out that i have tightend up its too late


Title: Re: Showing a bluff
Post by: bolt pp on June 27, 2007, 02:02:12 PM
NEVER, no value

conversely live stts i show all my good hands early


Title: Re: Showing a bluff
Post by: Ironside on June 27, 2007, 02:05:37 PM
bolt there is value in it if you feel you can get the table confused and playing to your advantage
on the otehr hand if most of the players are better than you no point


Title: Re: Showing a bluff
Post by: bolt pp on June 27, 2007, 02:14:32 PM
bolt there is value in it if you feel you can get the table confused and playing to your advantage
on the otehr hand if most of the players are better than you no point

If your playing on a "good" table then showing up a bluff shows the table unnecessarily certain things how and when you bluff, whats situations you chose to bluff, your betting pattern and amount, and if you're using position.

I find mid-low level cash games are poor primarily because they're weak, as opposed to very loose as they used to be, why would i want a passive table that folds to continuation bet, that i can pre flop re raise from button and take pot after pot on the flop all of a sudden shoving back at me because i'm showing  bluffs?


Title: Re: Showing a bluff
Post by: Ironside on June 27, 2007, 02:20:36 PM
bolt there is value in it if you feel you can get the table confused and playing to your advantage
on the otehr hand if most of the players are better than you no point

If your playing on a "good" table then showing up a bluff shows the table unnecessarily certain things how and when you bluff, whats situations you chose to bluff, your betting pattern and amount, and if you're using position.

I find mid-low level cash games are poor primarily because they're weak, as opposed to very loose as they used to be, why would i want a passive table that folds to continuation bet, that i can pre flop re raise from button and take pot after pot on the flop all of a sudden shoving back at me because i'm showing  bluffs?

because your wanting them playing LAGISH so when you do get a hand you get paid rather than picking up a few BBs you are likely to find taking a bunch of passive players and turning them into LAGS will take them out of there comfort zone


Title: Re: Showing a bluff
Post by: Dingdell on June 27, 2007, 02:27:21 PM
never show.


Title: Re: Showing a bluff
Post by: bolt pp on June 27, 2007, 02:35:11 PM
bolt there is value in it if you feel you can get the table confused and playing to your advantage
on the otehr hand if most of the players are better than you no point

If your playing on a "good" table then showing up a bluff shows the table unnecessarily certain things how and when you bluff, whats situations you chose to bluff, your betting pattern and amount, and if you're using position.

I find mid-low level cash games are poor primarily because they're weak, as opposed to very loose as they used to be, why would i want a passive table that folds to continuation bet, that i can pre flop re raise from button and take pot after pot on the flop all of a sudden shoving back at me because i'm showing  bluffs?

because your wanting them playing LAGISH so when you do get a hand you get paid rather than picking up a few BBs you are likely to find taking a bunch of passive players and turning them into LAGS will take them out of there comfort zone

I disagree, i want a passive table to stay in their comfort zone.

I dont have to wait for a hand and can dominate the table playing small pots from position without any risk to my stack.

Also it makes it very easy for me to tell when they have a real hand.


Title: Re: Showing a bluff
Post by: doubleup on June 27, 2007, 02:51:13 PM
bolt there is value in it if you feel you can get the table confused and playing to your advantage
on the otehr hand if most of the players are better than you no point

If your playing on a "good" table then showing up a bluff shows the table unnecessarily certain things how and when you bluff, whats situations you chose to bluff, your betting pattern and amount, and if you're using position.

I find mid-low level cash games are poor primarily because they're weak, as opposed to very loose as they used to be, why would i want a passive table that folds to continuation bet, that i can pre flop re raise from button and take pot after pot on the flop all of a sudden shoving back at me because i'm showing  bluffs?

because your wanting them playing LAGISH so when you do get a hand you get paid rather than picking up a few BBs you are likely to find taking a bunch of passive players and turning them into LAGS will take them out of there comfort zone

I disagree, i want a passive table to stay in their comfort zone.

I dont have to wait for a hand and can dominate the table playing small pots from position without any risk to my stack.

Also it makes it very easy for me to tell when they have a real hand.

Yes I agree with this - although Ironside is discussing micro-stakes and PLO8 - so he probably knows his game and I haven't played it so I can't say he's wrong.  Another point is that players at the low to middle levels don't usually change their game in response to someone bluffing.  They tend to concentrate on their own hand values and unless you are an absolute rock, they won't alter their calling range very much.


Title: Re: Showing a bluff
Post by: fearisthekey on June 27, 2007, 03:59:21 PM

Online bluff showers are usually insecure attention seekers "Oh look at me I'm a great player".  They usually do their money in my experience.

If 'oh look at me I'm a great player' makes them a bit annoyed and want to take you on/slap you down when they know they oughta be a bit more careful..........job done.
It's a game, this is part of it.


Title: Re: Showing a bluff
Post by: doubleup on June 27, 2007, 04:16:46 PM

Online bluff showers are usually insecure attention seekers "Oh look at me I'm a great player".  They usually do their money in my experience.

If 'oh look at me I'm a great player' makes them a bit annoyed and want to take you on/slap you down when they know they oughta be a bit more careful..........job done.
It's a game, this is part of it.

That simply doesn't work in practice at medium limits.  I will generally only call a bluff that I induce or where the bet doesn't make sense.  The kind of play that does induce errors in opponents is constantly betting raising and NOT showing - that leads to loose calls from opponents who get folding fatigue or get married to a pot.  I can only speak from experience and I see laggy players who don't ever show cards winning and bluff showers losing.



Title: Re: Showing a bluff
Post by: fearisthekey on June 27, 2007, 04:36:07 PM

Online bluff showers are usually insecure attention seekers "Oh look at me I'm a great player".  They usually do their money in my experience.

If 'oh look at me I'm a great player' makes them a bit annoyed and want to take you on/slap you down when they know they oughta be a bit more careful..........job done.
It's a game, this is part of it.

That simply doesn't work in practice at medium limits.  I will generally only call a bluff that I induce or where the bet doesn't make sense.  The kind of play that does induce errors in opponents is constantly betting raising and NOT showing - that leads to loose calls from opponents who get folding fatigue or get married to a pot.  I can only speak from experience and I see laggy players who don't ever show cards winning and bluff showers losing.



I do see a few people trying to make bets that don't make sense to make them look like bluffs. oops, he's got the nuts again.....
Isn't this what a lot of big calls are? Trying to catch out a bluffer? People *love* to call, and their ickle brains will gladly make up some reason for them to do so..."betcha he's bluffing again, I saw this guy prepared to put in half the pot with 8 high".
people LOVE to call, and no one likes the piss taken out of them, disarming the piss taker is a big coup for them.


Title: Re: Showing a bluff
Post by: doubleup on June 27, 2007, 05:07:53 PM

Online bluff showers are usually insecure attention seekers "Oh look at me I'm a great player".  They usually do their money in my experience.

If 'oh look at me I'm a great player' makes them a bit annoyed and want to take you on/slap you down when they know they oughta be a bit more careful..........job done.
It's a game, this is part of it.

That simply doesn't work in practice at medium limits.  I will generally only call a bluff that I induce or where the bet doesn't make sense.  The kind of play that does induce errors in opponents is constantly betting raising and NOT showing - that leads to loose calls from opponents who get folding fatigue or get married to a pot.  I can only speak from experience and I see laggy players who don't ever show cards winning and bluff showers losing.



I do see a few people trying to make bets that don't make sense to make them look like bluffs. oops, he's got the nuts again.....
Isn't this what a lot of big calls are? Trying to catch out a bluffer? People *love* to call, and their ickle brains will gladly make up some reason for them to do so..."betcha he's bluffing again, I saw this guy prepared to put in half the pot with 8 high".
people LOVE to call, and no one likes the piss taken out of them, disarming the piss taker is a big coup for them.

I don't think you understand what I mean by a bet not making sense - that aside I agree that it is desirable to get calls when you want them, but that can easily be achieved without showing cards. 

Someone who button raises with Q4o and c-bets the K high flop to win and then shows is only telling the table that he is a plonker.  Any action he gets subsequently will be based on his opponents assessment of his hand range based on betting fequency and the strength of the opponents hand - showing that he button raised and c-bet with filth won't change this at all.   


Title: Re: Showing a bluff
Post by: fearisthekey on June 27, 2007, 05:26:14 PM
If he's got a better hand than you it'll only make him much money the further his hand is from the one you've put him on, that's why betting should make as little sense as possible, otherwise state what you mean by bets not making sense.


Title: Re: Showing a bluff
Post by: londonpokergirl on June 27, 2007, 05:31:11 PM
Well the ladies tournament only showed 1 hand all day long and that was qq

Only other time my hands were shown was when a person was all in

Final table not once showed a hand and it worked in my favour

Think my new strategy is not to show, people know i'm a rock so up to them if they wanna call me or not :)


Title: Re: Showing a bluff
Post by: mex on June 27, 2007, 06:39:31 PM
I never show a bluff ever, but sometimes ill say what i had, or even bluff about that, gets them guessing even more.


Title: Re: Showing a bluff
Post by: Muahahahaha on June 27, 2007, 06:42:13 PM
I never show bluffs because I don't know what information I'm already giving away, with my betting patterns etc., and the more info I do give, the tougher it is for me in the future.  I mean, I try to mix it up, but even if we do that, don't we often do it in a predictable way ( isn't that how People like Paul McKenna and Derren Brown work ? )

But this also caught my eye .

in a live game i will show upto 30% of my hands but i am selective in which i show some are bluffs some are the nuts its all depends on my image at the table and the image i want to give off and the gear i am in or if i am changing gear stack size is another huge consideration as is my opponants and there abilty

as for them getting a read off me with the free info half the time i have no idea what i am thinking so how are they going to know what i am thinking

When you change gear, do you actively think, ooh I've been TAG for an hour now, time to shift up next time the button passes ?  I sort of find out I've changed gear after I've done it, then I decide to keep going for a while.  Then I get caught out, and so I suppose I'd better tighten up again for a while.

Not very scientific.  I try to use Doyles first & third gear rule, but I'm sort of reacting to the way people are reacting to me.

( What makes you think I'm confusing myself ? )


Title: Re: Showing a bluff
Post by: ifm on June 27, 2007, 06:46:42 PM
Never ever under any circumstances do i show, bluff, nuts, anything.


Title: Re: Showing a bluff
Post by: Dewi_cool on June 27, 2007, 07:07:32 PM
I never bluff and if I did I would never show


Title: Re: Showing a bluff
Post by: AlexMartin on June 27, 2007, 07:11:43 PM
I show in live cash games if its someone i dont like, but not in tournaments and never in online cash games. In fact, if its Eugene i go out of my way to show. :)



Title: Re: Showing a bluff
Post by: Royal Flush on June 27, 2007, 07:50:16 PM
What's a bluff?


Title: Re: Showing a bluff
Post by: sovietsong on June 27, 2007, 09:03:50 PM
I never bluff and if I did I would never show

LOL, dont you remember pushing into my flopped full house with A high?


Title: Re: Showing a bluff
Post by: sovietsong on June 27, 2007, 09:11:03 PM
I never bluff and if I did I would never show

http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=22083.msg449687#msg449687


Title: Re: Showing a bluff
Post by: doubleup on June 27, 2007, 09:35:26 PM
I never bluff and if I did I would never show

LOL, dont you remember pushing into my flopped full house with A high?

That was a value bet