blonde poker forum

Starting a new hand (#592947921)
Texas Holdem NL $0.25/$0.50 - 05-Jul-2007 18:57:14 Server
Table "TURBO" Arnoud
Seat 1: LostMighty ( $32.05 )
Seat 3: KoolElad ( $50.15 )
Seat 4: LampardCFC ( $23.25 )
Seat 5: Successboy ( $49.50 )
Seat 6: per5almaz ( $20.75 )
Seat 7: xCrazyStarx ( $21.34 )
Seat 8: p4ndor4 ( $9.25 )
Seat 9: Idontthink ( $49.25 )
Seat 10: baebche ( $22.28 )
baebche posts Small Blind $0.25
LostMighty posts Big Blind $0.50
Dealing cards
Your cards As Ad [xCrazyStarx]
KoolElad folds
LampardCFC folds
Successboy folds
per5almaz folds
xCrazyStarx raises $1
p4ndor4 folds
Idontthink folds
baebche raises $2.50
LostMighty folds
xCrazyStarx raises $4.25
baebche calls $2.50
Dealing Flop Ks 3h 5h
baebche goes All-in $17.03
xCrazyStarx goes All-in $16.09
Dealing Turn Ks 3h 5h Qd
Dealing River Ks 3h 5h Qd 8h
baebche shows Ah Jh
Winner is baebche $41.97
#EOG.

Had the other guy at LPA pre flop, but LAG post flop...my image at the table is TAG.

I'd raise more preflop, both times, min raising allows people to call with a wide range of hand with big implied odds which is bad for you. A nice big raise both builds the pot and helps simplify your decisions on future streets. It's also the best way to get as much money as you can in preflop - while your aces is still the nuts.

I agree. I really don't like the min raise preflop..and to do it twice? that's just criminal.

Raise to 2-2.50 preflop then when he reraises you he'd reraise to 8-10$ which means you actually have a decent pot to play for with your Aces.

Generally min-raising pre-flop is the biggest giveaway of a poor player. There are very few (if any) situations in cash (and I suspect tournaments too) where it serves any purpose.

Raise a decent amount pre-flop, then commit yourself on the flop because you are very short.

I min raised mainly because that table was very tight...especially me. Think I'd folded solidly for 30 minutes before that. I agree with the second min raise though, should have put more in.

I couldn't disagree with you more.  I always open miniraise utg and utg+1 in six max.  I raise 4x on cut-off and button.  This results in my OOP pots generally being smaller than my in position ones.  I can open raise with a wide range and call a reraise with implied odds if i wish.

Instead of reducing the size of your pre-flop raises when in an early position, why not just be more selective with the hands you raise with?

I would also argue that raises from early position should often be larger (not smaller) than late position raises because you have more players to get through.

E.g. You can afford a, say, 3.5BB raise from the button in an unopened pot because you only have the blinds left to act. However when UTG you don't want to let several callers in cheaply, and each caller you receive increases the value for any other potential callers.

If you are only min-raising from early position with AA, then I don't think you are maximising your returns and you are also significantly increasing your chance of losing the pot.

Because I feel that it is important for a number of reasons to raise with a range of cards that ensures that your opponent can never be sure that you don't have the nuts on any board (unless they have it.....)




The object of the game is (more or less) to stack off opponents more than they stack off you, not pick up the blinds


They think they do, in reality they are playing loose passive.  Also, if min raise utg with KQo, get a couple of callers and the board is Axx - I can c-bet about 1/2 pot with a high probability of success and virtually no chance of losing any more money in the hand.


I easily make up for any losses in two ways - first the wider range I can play from ep means that I am more likely to be reraised and secondly I am not creating a large pot OOP with one pair, so my opponents have to work hard to stack me off, giving more information about their hand and hopefully allowing me to fold when beaten. Although it is a small sample (29k hands). I am running at 6.39 PTBBs with AA since I adopted this strategy.

NB I am only discussing 6 max and open mini-raising utg and utg +1

interesting post....let me digest and I might have some questions remarks..but food for thought.

Good posts, and good discussion Smart Money and doubleup.  Hope you both can add more to it.

:)up

Thought I'd post a hand to discuss the pros and cons:

- player1 sitting in seat 1 with $1295.34
- player2 sitting in seat 2 with $145.96
- player3 sitting in seat 3 with $431.10
- me     sitting in seat 4 with $385.50
- player4 sitting in seat 5 with $391.20
- nutpeddlingnit sitting in seat 6 with $440.80 [Dealer]

player1 posted the small blind - $2.00
player2 posted the big blind - $4.00
** Dealing card to davmcg: Ac Qc
player3 folded
me  raised - $8.00
player4 called - $8.00
nutpeddlingnit called - $8.00
player1 folded
player2 called - $8.00

** Dealing the flop: 4c 5s Qh
player2 checked
me bet - $17.00
player4 folded
nutpeddlingnit called - $17.00
player2 folded

** Dealing the turn: 8c
me bet - $34.00
nutpeddlingnit raised - $68.00
me called - $68.00

** Dealing the river: Ad
me checked
nutpeddlingnit bet - $204.00
me folded



First thing to note is I get a 4-way pot - would this have happened if I had raised 3x?  Possibly not, but I would still almost certainly have got a call from the button - (he plays trap hands in position) - and likely then the BB.

My flop bet is standard for me representing KQ or better.  If player 4 calls, I would be immediately suspicious as he would have to be strong to call with players behind who could act.  When nutpeddlingnit calls I am actually thinking check the turn, however the flush draw I pick up on the turn leads me to bet half the pot.  His miniraise is an easy call.  Even though I improve on the river I can't call AI from this player (I would actually check raise the turn against some players from the Northern parts of Europe.....).  I think I would have got paid if I'd hit the flush though.

If I take the stronger line here: 3x pre, pot the flop, I probably end up stacked in this hand, having to call the river with my 2pr because the pot is too big on the turn. 

Also worth noting 67s is in MY range and I play it the same way until the turn miniraise.

there's 32 in the pot pre-flop, why only bet 17?

this thinking is so wrong.

because that is my standard bet on that flop - do you see why?

Please join in the conversation...

otherwise keep your own counsel

WHy do you want to play a 4 way pot oop with AQ?

I'm delighted see a multiway flop cheaply with AQs - aren't you?

not in a 6 max cash game utg.

No, i want it hu.

One other point of note:

By playing hands weaker than they actually are OOP, it makes it much easier for opponents to take the pot away from you. This is because you don't know whether their aggression is down to them having a strong hand, or if they are just trying to exploit the fact that they think you're weak.

The hand you posted is a good example of this. You may well have been behind of course, but you can't be too happy laying down top two (AQ) here not knowing where you are!

Let's suppose it was a good fold, and he held the nuts with 76o. You got out with a loss of $93. Now, what if you'd have raised 4BB instead? Player 4 may well have folded his, say, KJs and villain wouldn't have had the odds to call. Blinds fold too, and you win $6. Not a big pot, but $99 better than a min raise.

Obviously the above example is speculation and it's unlikely that it would have happened just like this, however it's purpose is more to show how you're less likely to get into trouble with a decent-sized raise.

Your definition of trouble and mine are obviously different - I'm quite happy to be bluffed off a small pot (which I doubt happened in this case) if I will eventually get the bluffer's chips.  As I mentioned I would play 67s the same way, so I get paid off by a bluffer. 

Anyway the basis of my argument is that nl is largely about winning big pots and not creating big pots for others to win.  It's much easier to do this if your OOP pots are smaller than your in position pots.  It's also easier to achieve if you play a wide range of hands.  The strategy I am advocating achieves both.  Obviously some hands become more difficult to play than others, but I think in the multitabling world a player with 44 is going to call any reasonable raise, if he thinks he has a chance of stacking you off, so the decisions still exist. 

Your post flop play has to be very good to play like this (IOW you have to fold a lot more big (ish)hands than most players who play, I guess)
You are right of course when you say that a cash game is all about getting someones entire stack.

It is a dangerous strategy if your postflop play isn't top-notch and I would not advocate it for most players.

It is interesting to see though..many ways to skin a cat and all that.