blonde poker forum

Hi all,

as per this thread, http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=26299.0 , I'll be helping out with the hand of the week for cash games. Here is the first installment, hope it generates good discussion, and ALL comments are more then welcome, no matter your personal skill level. Onto the hand........


The game is a deep 4-8NL game online, and the table is 4 handed.

You are on the button with 79clubs

You have been at the table for about 35 minutes, so that factors into how strong your reads will be.

Reads:

UTG has all the trademarks of a solid cash game player, but you note with interest that a few hands ago he bet, got raised, and then pushed all-in on the river with a bluff, so you know he is also not afraid to put money in the pot if he thinks he can get a fold. He raises preflop with impunity in position, and makes continuation bets almost all the time.  Most certainly a winning player at these levels.

His stack is $2,900

Button is hero. Hero’s image to the table is likely to be loose, re-raising preflop often. You made one bad call about 10 minutes ago, calling $400 River bet into a $700 pot with 55 on a Q7793 board and the villain had AQ, so it’s possible your opponent might still have that hand on his mind.

Your stack is $1,935

SB Is a very solid player, tight, but doesn’t factor into this hand.

BB is a very passive weak player preflo[ that is almost certainly the reason the game is going. He calls a lot and bets into pots a lot, but very rarely re-raises either pre or post flop. His hand requirements preflop are very very loose, and he chases far too much. Just an all round weak opponent.

His stack is $1,320



The hand:

UTG makes it $32 to play, and you pick up 7c 9c.

1) What do you do here, the options are fold/call or re-raise. What are the reasons for your action and why in your opinion is your action better then any of the other options?

Action:

You re-raise to $91, SB folds, BB calls, and UTG thinks a little before calling;

2) What are you thinking after this preflop action? What do you suspect their calls signify based on the information/reads you have at the moment?


The Flop comes down:

9h 2d 3c

(pot $277) BB leads out for $50, UTG calls.

3) What opinions are you formulating about the different ranges each player might hold at the moment? What are the pros and cons of each action, given reads, stack size and action on the flop? And ultimately, what would you do? and why?


Part 2 to come on Wednesday

1) What do you do here, the options are fold/call or re-raise. What are the reasons for your action and why in your opinion is your action better then any of the other options?

I think OTB with 4 players this hand is playable. The books say that SC are good if you can get in cheap against multiple opponents with high implied odds. I call or raise here depending on my image, reads on opponents and also just randomly as well. If we call we may get SB to play as well as the fishy BB. If we raise a) we can take the pot down now with 9 high. b) we have the initiative ie it will most probably be checked to us on the flop and we can take it down with a C-bet. As UTG is a solid player he will be wary of getting involved with a big pot out of positon without a good hand. Not many people float OOP and unless he has a high pocket pair (in which case he will 4-bet a high percent) he will miss the flop around two thirds of the time. If BB calls we are in positon against the weak player so it's happy days. Also being this deep inclines me towards the 3-bet with a fold if we get 4-bet big.

2) What are you thinking after this preflop action? What do you suspect their calls signify based on the information/reads you have at the moment?


The Flop comes down:

 

(pot $277) BB leads out for $50, UTG calls.

OK now it's time to think about our opponents ranges and our equity against them. BB we know calls a lot and bets into the pot a lot. We might estimate his range at any pair although AA-QQ seem less likely seeing as he didn't 4-bet preflop. He could be on a straight draw, two pair or a set. He could also just have an Ace or maybe two overcards. It is certainly a wide range atm.
What could UTG be calling with? He knows BB's fishy tendencies as well. He could be calling with a strong hand here knowing there's a good chance we will raise this weak bet. OTOH he could have a weak draw and be priced in with the weak bet and the implied oods from both the BB and us if we have a big pocket pair. His range may be something like overpair, pair like A9s, set, straight draw, AK or AQ may hang around here as well as an under pair like 77.

What is our equity? Well against an overpair, a set or 2 pair we are obv pretty screwed. Any overcard will be a scare card for us an Ace or a 6 may make someone a straight, unless we turn a 7 or 9 we have a weak TPWK hand. We may well have the best hand here but I don't think our equity against two players is that great. I certainly would not want to commit to this hand at this point which means that maybe we could call the $50 and keep the pot small.

However we could also raise here. If both players fold we have won a smallish but nice enough pot. If BB calls and UTG folds that is also good for us to get the strong player out and play in position agaist the weak one.
If both players call then they will prob check round to us on the turn card and we can then exercise pot control if we don't get a favourable card (or possibly a good bluff card like a Ace) I would like to take this pot down now. I raise to $300 and fold to a reraise.

1. Happy to take a flop here, so would have called. With a SC like this I am hoping to flop a big draw/flush or straight draw rarther than just top pair average kicker.

2. Post flop we know the bb's range is v v wide..its unlikely to be an overpair to the board, and could be just overcards or something as little as bottom pair. The UTG knows this, and may be planning to take it away later. Again I'm not thinking a big pair, the way he has played it, feels like two overcards to me

I think your decision to raise or call depends on foe's opinions of you, on the one hand you are likely to be best at this point but your hand is vulnerable to a lot of scare cards. I would think a raise to say $350 is in order to take it down. If they then push you'd normally feel you are beat but they know you can be raising here in postiion with a marginal hand..UTG in particular could exploit this

Flat calling controls the pot but leaves you vulnerable down the streets unless you hit a "banker" turn such as a trip 9

Im not a cash player unless I have a win and want to throw my money away...lol  But I cant see how flat calling makes you any more vunerable than a $350 raise? Particularly when UTG hasnt made a move yet which is a little bit fishy based on what we know?
Im a flat call and hope no big cards come down on the turn. Im not risking $350 knowing that UTG might come in over the top of me?

BB Has led out for 50, utg has called. you are in positiion...

If you call the flop then what do you do on the turn?

You are likely to face the same decision then, but for a greater amount of money and without the extra information a raise gives you.

yup, getting on for half the deck is a scare card for you on the turn

raise now, find out...

Okay, im worried about UTG. He likes to take down pots and he's flat called this one. So I'm thinking hes waiting to go over the top of me and take my $350. He knows im aggressive/loose so he could be waiting to pounce. So in essence I'm using my position to see what the turn brings in cards and action and only risking my call chips.

1/ pre flop i reraise to get rid of maybe SB and 1 other.... i get 2 calls and hit top pair...

2/ flop comes down i got top pair mediocure kicker (pile of poo) - BB bets 50 into such big pot and UTG only calls...maybe with his 2 overs hes getting value to call with any 2 over cards, i reraise to 300 and fold to any OTT rereraise.

if we raise here are we raising for value or as a bluff?

finding out if it is for value or as a bluff!

Maybe he got 2 overs and maybe hes already got a made hand? His calling dont make sense unless he has something.He a raiser and the bb's likely has nothing. So you could say hes got the 'first to act' head on here. If hes got overs, i'll bet he would take a pop?  Hes called a nothing raise so its screaming 'i got a hand' to me

If you play these hands all night long, more times than not UTG's play is going to mean hes beating you.  You'll end up skint:)

we don't raise for information tho do we.

I think essentially we are treating the silly little $50 bet as a check so our raise is essentially a C-bet.

Sometimes we raise for value sometimes we raise as a bluff. If villains are on some kind of draw (which is pretty unlikely with the board) we are raising for value? If they have AK,AQ type hands we are raising for value? If they have TT-QQ we are representing KK-AA as a bluff?

I thought I had this concept but now I is confuzzed

this is really player dependent. often this is a draw or a 55,66 kinda hand at the level I play. sometimes obv it could be a set and he wants you to raise. this is why you should watch your opponents and make notes. One day I will follow that advice:)

me too:)   lol

1) I think here against a standard player, you can call, you have position and you can make the most of it. Against a player who will c-bet practically ALL the time, you can't just call even with position as he'll blow you away with bets if he smells weakness and you'll have to flop big to prevent this happening. I don't mind calling here with big hands on occasion, as long as we mix up with big and small hands. Re-raising is the best option since it takes away UTG's c-bet opportunity much of time and establishes you as the chief aggressor. Calling is ok against a weaker-tighter player when you have position, but here I think it's -ev against UTG. Folding is fine, if you don't think you're as good a player as UTG.

2) I think the BB is on a draw, he leads out for $50 into a $277 pot? The surprise is that UTG has 'just' called, which means he must be either very strong or very weak.

3) If we assume that the BB won't fold a draw, and the UTG is happy to just call here despite the re-raise by us preflop, I think calling here is the best option and see what happens on the turn. Worst case scenario is that we raise to something like $400, BB calls, and then UTG shoves all-in and we're not looking healthy.

if someone c-bets 100% call with any 2 and raise flop

I like this theory and its very well explained. Cant wait to see what he did:) But need to wait til tomorrow!!

interesting comments, fwiw heres mine:

1) What do you do here, the options are fold/call or re-raise. What are the reasons for your action and why in your opinion is your action better then any of the other options?

I'd defo 3bet, the guys opening range is very wide, sometimes you take it down preflop, and when they call, you get to play in position. Defending your button is quite important because when you are playing against people that play position very well, you have to give it back and play in position aginst them otherwise you are going to have a hard time beating the table. If you had been calling more preflop, then calling would be perfectly fine, and its not even a bad play here, you just give up control, and the pot is smaller, but you still have position. I like to play bigger pots in position then OOP, so i'm 3betting here wide. Also you should take into consideration that you have been 3betting loose, so just calling here kinda tips off the strength of your hand, given that its unlikely you are just calling with a big hand, so it increases the liklihood of you getting blasted off postflop, and IMO decreases the range of flops you can represent post flop, relative to if you had 3bet.

2) What are you thinking after this preflop action? What do you suspect their calls signify based on the information/reads you have at the moment?

frankly not too much, BB is a bit of a calling station so he could have any pair, any suited connectors, any marginal Ace/QK/10J, pretty much any hand that looks reasonably pretty. UTG i think would likely put in another raise postflop with AA and KK, maybe QQ, maybe not, but apart from those hands, any hand he has opened with (which is a wide range) he is likely to be calling with... and its still possible he could have AA/KK, but its less likely then say 77, even though the combinations are the same.

3) What opinions are you formulating about the different ranges each player might hold at the moment? What are the pros and cons of each action, given reads, stack size and action on the flop? And ultimately, what would you do? and why?

BB donk bets small, so again theres not too much info to go on, it could be middle pair, a raggedy draw, top pair, a pp lower then top pair but higher then second pair. UTG is slightly more interesting, when he just calls the $50 bet, he could be running a play on you, given that he should expect you to raise the donk lead and the weak call, but at the same time he might have nothing and just be drawing cheap... raising here could feasibly get a call from worse from BB and a fold from better by UTG (88--1010) so it can protect your hand and be a raise for value, but its building a pot with a weakish hand where you could spike something on the turn cheap. The main problem with just calling is that you are kinda tipping off the strength of your hand, and the "just" call by you is definately much weaker in relative terms then the "just" call by him. It does let you see what happens on the turn though, and if you do spike a card that improves your hand, it wont be easy to read, so theres pros and cons for both.

This is fascinating for a poor & inexpoerienced Cash player like myself. Keep it coming please.

Part 2

Action, you called


Turn, 6c, so the board is 9h 2d 3c 6c (pot $427)


BB leads for $200, and UTG calls, action is on you:

4) How has your estimation of their ranges changed given the turn action? What would you do here? And why?


Action: you decide to call


River comes down the 2c, so the board is 9h 2d 3c 6c 2c (pot $1027)

BB bets $300, UTG  just calls again, after running his clock down

5) Now what are you thinking about their relevant ranges? What kind of hands do you figure either of the players to be holding, putting pre/flop/turn/river action together?

6) What do you think UTG running his clock down signifies?

7) Do you call/fold or raise here? and if you raise, how much?


Conclusion to come on Friday.

4) How has your estimation of their ranges changed given the turn action? What would you do here? And why?

they both must have something to still be in this hand, we have pot odds to call to catch a flush, I call

5) Now what are you thinking about their relevant ranges? What kind of hands do you figure either of the players to be holding, putting pre/flop/turn/river action together?

Maybe BB is rope a doping us with a monster, could UTG have a hand like JJ or TT?

6) What do you think UTG running his clock down signifies?

He's 12 tabling/watching porn/eating dinner or maybe he has the nut flush and is trying to work out if he should raise or not.

7) Do you call/fold or raise here? and if you raise, how much?

I call

1) What do you do here, the options are fold/call or re-raise. What are the reasons for your action and why in your opinion is your action better then any of the other options?

I'd probably call here and try to catch a flop. Being a solid player, he most likely has a strong hand, so you may be given an opportunity to take his whole stack.

A re-raise is also feasible here. You may take it off him pre-flop, and if you don't, you have a disguised hand and will be in position.


2) What are you thinking after this preflop action? What do you suspect their calls signify based on the information/reads you have at the moment?

Sounds like pocket pairs, say Eights or something. The Big Blind's calling a re-raise, but judging by the description, there are a number of hands he could have.

It's hard to put the initial raiser on a strong hand as he only flat-called rather than removing the threat of the player in the big blind with another raise.


3) What opinions are you formulating about the different ranges each player might hold at the moment? What are the pros and cons of each action, given reads, stack size and action on the flop? And ultimately, what would you do? and why?

The small bet and flatcall could be deemed fishy, but I'd stick in a re-raise here to find out where I am. If I call, then there are too many cards that can ruin my hand and give my opponents a chance to bluff me out. Someone may well have a set here, but you'll soon find out if you are played back against.

4) Before, he lead out for $50 into a $277 pot, which seemed incredibly weak, now the BB suddenly bets $200 into a $427 pot and UTG flat calls again. At this point, I think the BB has either the straight, 9-6 or a 9 with a decent kicker. UTG has just called again, I think he has an overpair to the board, but can't justify raising here, he knows the big blind doesn't like to fold so I don't think he has a set because he'd have raised knowing he was going to be called, plus we are an unknown quantity here but we only flat-called the flop so at the moment we couldn't be considered having much. We should call here once more, we're getting over 4-1 on our call, we are behind at the moment though.

5) Ok, the BB bets into the paired board, that's not a major problem, he might well be value-betting two pair or a straight here which I think is more likely that a full house. UTG just calls, for a third time, we can eliminate him having a set because surely he'll put the BB all-in because he's more likely to get the BB calling for the rest of his stack (the BB having put around half his stack in) than getting us to make an overcall for less money. If he has an overpair to the board, the deuce is a good card for him too in case the big blind had made two pair on the turn. He seems unconcerned about us calling here behind him, so I suspect he has a big pair.

6) UTG was deciding whether or not it was worthwhile to raise here, I think he knew he was beating the BB, but wasn't sure if raising would be a good move. Sometimes, the dwell is also used to try and discourage someone else from raising here also.

7) I raise and make it $1,000. Enough to put the big blind all-in, if he had been leading with a set then fair enough, but back-door flushes don't occur often in re-raised pots so we need to make the most of this.

Playing for stacks with a non nut flush on a paired board. you're braver than me.

4) How has your estimation of their ranges changed given the turn action? What would you do here? And why?

From the player description you have given, I think the Big Blind either has Pocket Nines, A-9 or an overpair like Tens or Jacks to be pulling the trigger for the second time.

As for the under the gun player, he could either be playing an overpair rather cagily or trapping with a Flopped set.

I'd be treading very carefuly now and would even consider a fold.

5) Now what are you thinking about their relevant ranges? What kind of hands do you figure either of the players to be holding, putting pre/flop/turn/river action together?

I think the Big Blind has Jacks and UTG has Ac Kc

6) What do you think UTG running his clock down signifies?

He may be pretending to think to encourage you to raise, a squeeze play of sorts, but I have a feeling he has made a flush with A-Ks and was contemplating a re-raise.

7) Do you call/fold or raise here? and if you raise, how much?

You could be ahead here against Tens and Jacks or something similar, but the Big Blind betting out on a board like that suggests he must have something, especially when it's only $300 with two players behind him. I'd fold.

Yep, no way I'm raising here. I can't see what's going to call you, and there's too high a chance that you're screwed. The Big Blind is desrcibed as passive, but still not worth the risk for me.

hi all,

this is how the story ended.

I just called on the river, and BB showed 45 for the straight and UTG had JJ, so I scooped the pot... at the time I didn't really consider raising, but given the way UTG has played the hand, I really think he has me beat very rarely, so its not like i should be *too* scared of him, and SB is of course a pretty bad player, so the more I thought about it the more feasible a raise could be, but the fact that SB was betting into two players rather then one swayed it to a call.

As for flop play, I think raising here is the best line to take as a "standard" line, if for no other reason then balance, and to stop yourself playing a style dependant on your hole cards, which leads to exploitability (ie, raising spots like this with big hands and bluffs but just call with marginal hands/draws) but as long as you aren't doing that, then calling here some of the time is okay.

thanks for all the comments  :)up

A cracking thread from start to finish.

thank you


great stuff...there you go with randomisation again, your greatest tip ever to me!


Mantis does a tournament hand starting Sunday night/Monday.

Yes, but you're assuming bad players can't make good hands.

its not so much a case of not thinking they can make hands, its more a case of "they wont only call if I'm beat", so that opens up avenues for raises where you might not normally make one, but given that he bet into 2 players, it made it much more likely that he had a very strong hand then if it was into just the 1. I still think calling is the right play, but fancy play syndrome often lets you try and figure out value spots where theres limited value lol