blonde poker forum

Passed KK pre-flop?

How can you be 100% certain that you are up against AA?

If you have, describe the circumstances, please


Last night I smelt AA when I had KK, but to use the cliche.."I wasn't good enough to pass"...but if he'd shown QQ or KK(!) i'd have been gutted


I repeat, can you ever be 100% sure you are against AA?

 :dontask:

you can never be sure but the odds are in your favour.  its not often AA and KK turn up in the same hand.  Besides, it got to be worth waiting for the flop no?

This is in my vast experience of course  :D

You're up againts AA when holding KK about 1/24 times. So the answer is no, I have NEVER folded KK preflop hu.

Yes, I used to, but not any more. I now just take the view - urged by Dave C - that they can't be passed early in a tourney, & what will be will be.

So at Palm Beach, against Dave LLoyd, whose betting screamed "Ive got AA" I moved in with KK. Ditto against Pedro at Gutshot. In BOTH cases, they had AA. And I hit my set.......

In the Blue Square Grand Prix Qualifier, the same thing happened when I was holding QQ. Nick Gibson had AA, then, a few hands later, whilst holding QQ again, Tighty had them. In both caes I set them all-in, & hit my set.....

Bad play by me? Maybe. But i am happy with the advice Dave gave me. "Take your chances Tony - you MAY be wrong about your oppo holding Aces, you MAY hit your set, but anyway, that's just poker". He also told me he'd disown me if he ever caught me passing KK in pretty much any situation. That'll do for me. Thanks Mr Colclough - you oughta take up poker for a living.

I've passed KK a couple of times pre-flop, but only once in a cash game. $5/10 NL 9 handed (it was on VC, ages ago) and I get KK in middle position with about $850. Raise it to $50 (at this point I'm seen as being fairly tight, haven't really played too many hands) some guy (who also hasn't played a hand in ages) about two off the button goes all in for about $900, so he has me covered.

Rightly or wrongly I passed, I was probably playing with about 30% of my bankroll at the time and my notes said that he occasionally likes to play AA in such a way. Don't know if I should of called, but felt at the time it was probably the correct thing to do based on the way both he and I had been playing (he must of known that I had only been playing good cards that session).

Was the lesson learnt about playing with too much of your bankroll at stake?

Well......

i think KK and AA are the two hands than can only be passed in exceptional circumstance , normal run of the mill on line games i cant pass them , if there were seats on line or a massive difference in prize funds then pass

have passed QQ quite a few times (and of all the times i have passed QQ i've been wrong at most 10% of the time). KK i have passed in a couple of cash games but never in a tourney.

Yup, QQ is different - in a torney, you need to factor in the possibility of running into AK, & make your decisinn as to whether, all things considered, you want to take on the 50-50 shot. Or AA. Or KK....

The one time i was absolutely going to lay down KK but just couldn't do it resulted in me bubbling for the wsop main event. A mate saying you just can't lay it down... you just can't, persuaded me and i was crippled and went out 3rd for $120.

I put down KK but it was in a satallite, I was chipped up 11 left, 8 seats

I would never ever lay down kk in a cash game. In fact 3 times in two days I had kk utg in cash games and made a stiff raise only to get reraised each time. On each occassion I pushed in and was called by AA. (and lost my stack) . I chatted to a few mates about this and they said "why the all in ?" so now i will be calling. If an ace hits i can get away cheaper but if the flop is rags the chips are in anyway.
The way I see it, laying down KK in a cash game is a -ev play. There are plenty of hands you have strangled but only one you will struggle against (and there's always the beautiful set).

I lay down QQ and Ak a fair bit in tournies but havent had the situation to lay down KK or AA yet although I am sure I could if it was the right play.

just my thoughts

no i havent passed KK pre flop, even though once i thought and i was up against aces. it was in the monthly £300 at walsall im on the bb and there are about 5 limprs i look down at KK and thought lovely and i raise only to be reraised from matey boy(junior) who was utg. this is how i play aces normally utg i sat there and thought for a while and pushed all in, the truth is/was i am NOT good enough to lay it down. after i pushed and obviously junior called, before the cards were face up, i said youve got aces havent you? to which he replied yeah, you got kings?. it was that obvious. if i had of called his reraise i would of probably pushed in on the flop anyway as it was 10 high.

Have laid it down a few times in cash games (correctly so)

In tournaments i have laid it down once in an early stage, it was my first festival event i had KK in the SB the button was a rock and a half, all fold he limps i raise pot he then re-raise pot, i take about 3 seconds and pass faceup, he shows AA.

THen about 20 minutes later i make my biggest ever fold, 44 on a 9429 board against him, he had 96, lol.

AA, once in a tourney, i was a shortish stack on the final table of a largeish comp online, 3 players went all in then the CL called them all, i passed thinking i would move up a large amount of money, sure enough the CL won the hand (hit his set) and i came 2nd.

How on earth did you pass that? or why?

I would never be proud to admit that.

He was as rocky as they come.


The hand went like this, i limp UTG with 44 as do most of the table, LP goes ALLIN for 250 total, so everyone calls including this guy on the BB.

Flop 942, now this tight guy bets Pot into a dry pot, i think he has to have a hand, there is a flush draw possible and i do not put him on that, i reason he is 99 22 94 92 A9.

I flat call, wanted to see the action behnd me, i hope if someone raises i can get it all in. Everyone else folds.

The turn comes a 9, now he bets only about 1/3-1/4 the pot, at the time i was tourney CL and he was not far behind, i reasoned that he was not scared of the flush draw (he must have put me on it!!) because the bet was to small to get me of the flush draw, so i was quite happy he was a FH and i could only beat 22, so i passed. As soon as i did he said something like "phew i meant to bet more, scared you would call your flush draw" His bad bet on the turn saved his stack....oh well!!!

Blank river, i went on to bubble, lol.

I could not lay that down in a million years. Shame you weren't correct then you would have felt like a million dollars.

i hate big pairs late in tournys as i prefer to take pots down uncontested unless i am picking on small stacks with a large one.

14 players left in a big comp at the vic last year (18 paid but money in top 3) i had moved from a small stack at beginning of day 2 to 2nd biggest on table only to find KK UTG and the chip daddy (maniac)had AA i wasnt good enough to lay it down.
the next comp i played in the vic 16 players left (18 paid money in top 3) i was sat to left of Lucy R in my bb she lay down a raise from SB showing an Ace to my AK a few hands later she makes a raise from MP i have QQ and i am again unable to lay them down she only had AK this time but called in a flash for the board to read AAxxK


i hate to put all my chips in pots at that stage i would much rather pick up small pots that play for big ones as hands like KK are only small favourites via Ax and therefore one bad card could ruin your comp

Ironside did I read your post correctly? "hands like KK are only small favourites versus Ax"  ????

yep KK is only 2-1 against A2s whcih means that for every twice you win you lose once and if you in deep into a big comp do you really want to putting you chances of a big pay day on the line as a small favourite

Yup yuor right, 67.5% to win. So if you hold KK and your opponent goes all in and turns over A2s would you fold or call?

He would call, but he wouldn't like it. The point he is trying to make is he would like someone to raise, he can move all in they can fold. He then picks up a smallish pot with no risk of being knocked out.

more often than not call

but there will be times a good player lays it down thats when they have a edge over the field and can pick up chips without putting his comp on the line

i am not a good enough player to ever do that though as on most fields i dont have an edge never mind a big enough edge

Points taken, thankyou

A quote from helmuth i think.

when asked how his tournament was going

he said 'it's going great, i've only been all in twice and one of the times i had the nuts'

Reinforces ironsides point i think.

i taught hellmuth all he knows


now if only i had his bankroll

Yep, I've also passed KK pre-flop before.  I've actually got it wrote in my blog so I can re-call exactly how it happened....

Down to 70 or so in the Crypto Sunday35k and I'm sitting 15th or so...

Utg 17k Stack limps for 400 chips.
Folded round to button 11k stack who raises to 2,400.
With a 14k stack I make it 4,800 with KK from the SB.
Utg then goes all in (at this point im thinking must be AA but can I bring myself to let go of KK and wonder for the rest of the tournement)
Button raiser calls the all in. This makes my decision a lot easier as I'm now certain at least one of them must have AA.

Sure enough utg turns over AA, and the button... 99? What a stupid call. Thanks for making it though cause it got me out of a potentionally tricky situation. He spiked the 9 as expected but I'm just glad I managed to get away from that one.

I have passed KK in a satellite  online to which my friend said "what are you doing"? 5 mins later i had a seat.
I don't really play cash games but from my experiences in them people are a lot tighter and hefty reraising before the flop is GENERALLY QQ, KK and AA so would be willing to release KK to big preflop action in a cash game.
In live tournaments i have never passed KK preflop and my first 2 festival events I went out KK to AA. Unless you know the player MUST have AA to make a certain play it is extremely difficult to lay down. As the UB $200 has the best structure of any of the bigger tourney's imo i often see litte raising early on as the stacks are deep, by about the 5th or 6th raise I think it has to be AA for your opponent if holding KK. 1/24 times somebody will have AA when you have KK I believe and 18% of the time you will win.
So, in 1000 hands you will find AA 41 times and of those 41 times you will draw out nearly 8 of them (correct me if this is wrong just adding my thoughts).
Take your chances with the KK methinks go with the mathematics.

On a side note Flushy passing AA preflop................no comment. And why would you pass that 44..........no comment.  8)

Because i am a mug.

really? please explain! - i would have thought it was much less likely than that.

"You're up againts AA when holding KK about 1/24 times."

I read the above in Dan Harrington's Vol 1.

204:1 that someone gets AA when you have KK, if you are playing 9 handed then 204/8 = 25.5 roughly

I have passed them in a cash game. UTG limps, so does next player. I'm one off button with KK I raise full pot. UTG is all in. Player 2 who has P1 covered by about 3 times just FLAT CALLS. It stinks so I pass. They had QQ and AA.

Heads up pre flop I would find them very hard to pass.

Limping with QQ UTG is a wrong play imho

Agreed. That's why I love $2 - $4 NL! :)