blonde poker forum

Tonight after busting out of the tournament i decided to play some 1/2 cash. I sat down and after about 3 hours i was dealt AA. I  raise to 18 pre flop and get 2 callers the flop comes A39 rainbow i bet 40 pound and the bloke calls instantly. I then bet 40 on the turn which he also calls instantly. The river comes a 2 at which point i have 220 infront of me and he has about 160. I go all in and he instant calls and he shows AQ and says "can u believe that". I show AA.

He then says he didnt see i had him covered and refuses to give me the money from the bet on the river, i says what do u mean and he replies " u were hiding them". At no point was i hiding my chips and a manager is called. He says he only saw 60 pound worth of chips as i bet the river and he refuses to pay me.

The manager checks the cv and says that i was slighly hiding them but not intentially. She rings another casino and they state i must  be givin the pot as he declared Call.. he refuses to pay and give me 60 pound and leaves.

Thanks for your help.

Dom

I think that's well out of order and the casino should think twice about letting him back in.

Poor show.

Something slightly similar happened at Leeds Grosvenor once:

http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=18973.0 (http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=18973.0)

This one is a clear angle shot.  If he tabled the winner would he only ask for £60 as thats all he thought you had?

Its all his fault, and he should've asked for a count, bollocks ruling from the casino.

there seems to be some doubt   on  visibility in your own words, so you may learn for the future not to let the angle shooters in !!



a better/stronger/more knowledgeable mgr may have suggested the player either pay up, or be barred from all grosvenors   for cheating,  which all casinos take v seriously.

Whayever happens DON"T ban the guy with such fantastic play as that  ;)

Surely if the casino ruling was that the player should pay the full amount then if the other player only pays £60 of it the casino is responsible for the balance since they are charging table money to play in their casino. Personally I would have asked the card room manager to get the casino to pay the balance. By charging table money/rake/session fees or whatever else you want to call the charges the casino should be responsible for all monies and thats surely the reason anyone would play in a licensed premises rather than an unlicensed premises to know you have the security of your money being guaranteed.

The casino can't be held responsible for one player stealing from another.

If the casino was held 'responsible for all monies' in a poker game then they would be leaving themselves open to all sorts of scams.

The money you pay is for the dealer, space and facilities and does not extend to some kind of insurance against thieves.

So basically you are offered no security whatsoever from the casino and to a certain extent they are condoning stealing within their building. Surely this is even more open to scams than them policing the games within their premises.

That was disgusting -- Car Park, Baseball bat & right now comes to mind

i read a thread like this once where the guy kicked up a huge fuss and insisted on calling the police and the casino took him away from the table, gave him the money and said please don't tell anyone we've given it to you.

surely better for them to cough up than to have the police coming inside and disrupting the rest of the night?

In what way is the casino condoning theft?

A casino can choose to make a discretionary payment if it wishes, but it is under no obligation to do so.

A casino may well make a small payment as a gesture of goodwill, but to expect them to guarantee the sums involved in larger cash games is ridiculous.

In tournaments, where the the casino holds all the money, then they will guarantee the security of the game. In a cash game, where the players hold the money, they can't be expected to be held responsible for the integrity of every player.

In the described instance they allowed the player to leave the premises having only paid £60 out of the £160 they had ruled he should pay. Presumably he still had chips or did they also allow him to change the chips to cash as well as blatantly not paying what they said should be paid. Now if he was involved in attempting to steal money from a table game they would have got the police involved and prosecuted. What right do the casinos have to be granted a license to host games and take charges where a punter does not feel safe and secure in the knowledge that his money is protected.

It's not been said if the player left with cash or chips, both are often used on poker tables.

You can't stop someone from leaving if they wish to do so.

For a poker game to be played there has to be an element of trust. Occasionally someone will break this trust. In most instances the best course of action is to suck it up and resolve not to play with that person again.

Casinos should and do bar people who cheat or steal.

glad to see  your over it tho !!

only by banning cheats  can casionos make a better environment  to play in.

By this posting it appears that they didnt ban him from the casino so surely they have totally condoned his actions of not paying for his declaration to call.

If it was me I'd be going back in there today asking to speak to the manager to get an explanation as to why they didnt enforce the ruling and then had the audacity to allow him to continue to play table games within the casino. I would also expect the manager to clarify as to what security I could expect in the future with regard to cheating etc.

The usual MO for barring someone is to not let them re-enter the premises, rather than wrestle them out of the door.

Speaking with casino management to make sure the bloke is barred, and to seek clarification of what players can expect in this kind of situation, is exactly what should be done.

If we turned the situation around and the casino caught him playing roulette and placing a late bet on the winning number would they pay him out and then say go ahead and play poker in the poker room with your ill gotten gains. I think not.

He may well be banned from this particular casino and be refused entry the next time he attempts to go in but surely there is no sense in allowing him to continue gambling within the casino once he has been deemed to have broken their rules.

As I stated in a previous post I still think the casino being licensed has an obligation to provide a safe and secure premises to gamble in whether table games or poker and to also enforce their own rules. This was 1 of the reasons behind the prosecution of the Gutshot stating that unlicensed premises could not guarantee punters security regardless of whether or not poker is a game of skill.

If I venture into a casino to play poker I want to feel safe and secure in the knowledge that if any cheating does take place that the casino will stamp it out and also pay me my money and not let some lowlife take it and play it up at the roulette tables. If not the case I may as well play poker at unlicensed premises not knowing whether the game is straight or not. Surely that is the point of applying for and gaining a license to run both casino games and poker which would then be regulated.

We don't really know exactly what happened or the timeframes. I don't know if everyone did their job as well as they should or not, quite probably not.

If someone is caught cheating in any game it's much easier to not pay a bet than it is to get money off someone who is unwilling to part with it.

You can call the the police, but they won't prosecute because it's virtually impossible to convict someone for cheating at poker.

The regulations for card-room games are much more loosely defined than for tables games. The rules and conventions are for the most part left up to the casinos to sort out. Many casinos allow private games in which they play little or no part in the running of and they collect no money from these games, often a casino member will organise, deal and take a rake from these games. Other casinos provide dealers and supervision and charge accordingly.

Find out what the situation is before you sit down, don't sit if you're not comfortable with it. Don't expect the casino to bail you out if someone cheats you, it's you who has been cheated not the casino.

A small percentage of poker players will cheat if they can get away with it, this applies to casino run games, private games and on the internet. If you play enough poker then sooner or later you will get cheated.

I'm not saying that it should be accepted just that it should be expected. The casinos and regulators will not and can not provide the same level of protection on table games and card room games.

I just have to say that guy is lucky he was playing somebody so mild mannered!  Action like that is just welching on your bet and if you don't pay up you get things broke if you can't afford to gamble then don't!

Good post and I agree with all you say except for the fact that when I go to a casino I expect to get a certain amount of protection against any wrong doing.

Casinos can in now way whatsoever garauntee your money in this instance. They can't pin the geezer down and make him give you the cash he owes you. He was either going to pay him, or he wasn't. All they can do is nationally bar him for blatantly cheating at a poker game.

If they didn't ban him, it's simply an unfortunate case of dealing with a completely inept and clueless casino manager that knows nothing about poker, of which I have met many. Why the hell did they have to ring another casino? Where was the card room supervisor? Newcastles card room aint the sharpest tools in the box, i've worked there on a GUKPT, but that's basic poker. If you cant see someones chips, you ask to see them. Simple.

What then is the point in a representative of the casino making a ruling if they have no intention of enforcing the ruling. To then allow the man to go and play the remaining cash up at 1 of their tables games is absolutely awful behaviour by the casino management.

Personally I would be going back to the casino at some stage today and request a meeting with the management to discover what steps have been put in place to ensure this doesnt happen again and requesting an ex gratia payment from the casino since I would have expected better from the management and I would tell them I expected to play poker in a safe and secure environment and thats why I chose to play at their establishment instead of playing in a back street spieler.

Very rough, but that's life, it happens, it's best just to move on & put it down to experience. Of course, the Casino must ban him, but that's all they, quite reasonably, could or should do.

A tough break, but life does that sometimes, & it stands us in good stead for lifes bumps & bruises. Pursuing a vendetta won't help,  best to just move on.

Unlucky mate.

In a cash-game, we are not playing against the House, we are playing against individuals. The Casino cannot be responsible.

Obviously, Roulette & Blackjack are different, they are punter v the House, & debts must be honoured. And are.

Most games are played in the right spirit and with integrity by all players.

However, to avoid any angle shooting especially if you are playing with strangers always play 'correctly' to avoid any doubt of your intentions and the response of others.

In this case apart from your verbal all in declaration which in itself would be binding, shove your money/chips across the line or whatever and ensure your opponent does the same. No comebacks after that as the money is in the pot.

Even in games where I know the players (maybe because I know what some will do) there have been occasions where I will ask the player calling the bet to move his money across the line to avoid any confusion etc...

I know the person in question and have played with him for maybe 2 years or more and i have to say one thing he is not is a cheat he told me the story and i have spoken to other people who were there and they all say Dom hid his chips with his arm on purpose,held £60 in his hand and pushed the 60 in saying 'all in' which to my mind is a little bit naughty in itself.
Now the Dom in question got barred from Aspers for as one of the cardroom supervisors said"a suspicion of cheating with his friends" and some other incident so before everybody says ther,there,there poor Dom i suggest you hear more than one side of the story!
The person in question is an ex officer in the RAF whereas the "victim" has been barred from another casino for similar antics.I probably would have given Dom the benifit of the doubt and payed him the rest but also would have told him in no certain terms that i would never sit on the same poker table as him again.

If you were indeed hiding your chips, then that's extremely bad form. However, the decision did fall in your favour, rightly or wrongly, so your opponent should pay. If someone refuses to abide by the rules or decisions enforced by the casino, then I would be contacting the police.

hey levan

i seen a player earlier called llevan in the $5 rebuy on blonde

totally storming into a massive CL


wasnt u was it?

im not sayin he cheated, and i did not hide my chips. i am not bothered about the 70 quid or whatever but as the rest of the table said it was not on. and sayin i got banned from aspers for cheating, LOL

No it wasnt me but seems a bit strange that someone uses the same username as me since I use this on all sites that I play on except sometimes you might see a 1 or 2 after it if playing on a skin with more than 1 account with different operators.

Hiding chips is bad poker etiquette. However it appears from the original posters comments the CCTV was viewed prior to the card room making their ruling. As always there is always 2 sides to a story and the truth is usually somewhere in between the 2 sides. However once the ruling was given I would expect the opponent to abide by the ruling and also for the casino to either enforce it or ban the opponent and certainly wouldnt want to see him minutes later giving the house a spin at the roulette table.

I was not hiding my chips, if he had called and won he would of matched my whole stack and not just the 60 i bet as "all in". I would like to no how you think im banned from aspers for cheating please

As i said 1 of the card room supervisors who had been reading this post said to me that he had banned someone called Dom for "suspicion of cheating with his mates" now Dom i know you got banned from Aspers as you told me yourself so what did you get banned for?
Being a great sport who never cheats and always abides by the rules?????????
Anyway how can you hide chips accidentaly with your arm? your money should be visible at all times to protect yourself and opponents for this exact same thing and just because the cardroom had made the ruling that he had to pay you does not make it right because Newcastle grosvenor do not have a clue on the rules of poker they constantly contradict themselves to the point of farce its as if they have a wheel of fortune with different answers on and which ever 1 it lands on is the ruling for that day

LOL,i just worked out who you are Dom and to be fair i have never seen you cheat at the table altho you are a tad bit cocky.Anyway you should deff know not to hide your chips like that because your leaving yourself wideopen,so just a bit more common sense and a little less crying on poker forums and who knows you might not get banned from Grosvenor and Stanley as well

who are you ?

Duh he won't tell you that look at his name.

since he knows who i am he might, upto him.

There are a number of times when cardroom managers make incorrect decisions, but that doesn't mean he shouldn't pay up. Like referees in football, their decision is final. It may have been a dive, but you can't just say it wasn't a penalty and try to play on.

i was banned for swearing at a manager in the card room, i wrote a letter of apology and will be makin a return in 3 weeks. Ad Ac

LOL,good 1 longy

on the original post when Doms says "i had 220 left and said all in" he conveniently forgot to mention that £160 was hidden behind his arm(the cardroom supervisor will verify that just like they did to the "villain" )
dom had £60 in his hand and pushed that in while saying all in. thats what narks me the fact that he has only told half the story.
A career in the media awaits mr.Goldfox probably with the currant bun.
Anyway Dom i will see you in Stanley on Tuesday night

I was informed of this site last night by a good friend of mine as my this story was being told incorrectly.  Therefore, i decided to tell my side of the event.

The man in question raised £15 pre flop - i called.
The flop came  Ad Th 9d

I had  Ahrt Qh 

He bet £25 - i called

turn -  8h

He then moved £60 towards the line, and before it crossed the line he waved his hand and said "all in".

I said "call"

River  5d.

I moved £60 towards the guy to pay him.  He then lifted his arms up off the table a revealed more money( approx £70).

this is when i became unhappy because he WAS hidding his money as THE CCTV proved later.

I told him i would pay the £60, but not the rest(because of ungentlemanly conduct) - we don't do things like that at our cash tables in newcastle.

The card room manager was called and went to check the CCTV.

While she was away and we were waiting the guy then AGREED to take the £60 and carry on with the game.
However when the card room manager came back, the FIRST thing she said was - " YOU ARE HIDING YOUR MONEY",
but i have been onto another casino and they have told me an all in call is an all in call.

I know the rules and i know i am an honest and trustworthy guy who is well known in all the casinos in newcastle.

However, what the guy did, i believe was out of order.

I paid the £60 and left the table.

I DID NOT GO ON THE ROULETTE, I went outside for a smoke and the manageress came out within 5 mins and asked me to leave, which i did.

I have been banned from The Grovesnor Casino for refusing to pay the other £70.

Since this event took place, I have found out that the same guy had been accused of cheating at the cash table the week prior at the same casino AND was banned from Aspers for cheating.

I will let you all make up your own minds.

thanks

Yes, but he may of not made the call if it was going to cost him more.

Yours was the first act that created the situation. The question is was you move an accident or not???

I would NOT have made the call for £130.  I only called because i believed it was £60.

Over to you Dom



DOM, DOM, DOM?

nothing more to say. I have my opinion and other people have theres.

This thread has left me saddened and appalled.  I have played Newcastle Grosvenor for over 12 months now, and know most of the players there.  The cash games at the Grosvenor are the best in Newcastle, and the community in the card room is more like a social club than a casino.

I can only recall one incident similar to the above where some one refused to pay the rightful winner of a pot, which resulted in him being barred from all Grosvenor Casinos.

By the detail listed in this thread I know who the supposed villian of the peice is, I have played with him most weeks and am happy that he is a genuine stand up guy.  I can not recall one instance where he has been involved in any form of controversy in relation to either cash or tournament play and find it hard to believe that he would shoot an angle such as this, I could be wrong, but I dont think so.

I am unable to identify dom from the details in the thread, therefore am unable to balance my view with my opinions on how he conducts himself. But if he plays the £1/2 game at the grosvenor, I will know him or at least know of him.

If the chips were concealed either deliberately or by accident, then the supposed villian should not be held responsible for that, if he cant see the chips how is he supposed to know what he is calling.  And if that was the case then I believe the ruling of the casino was incorrrect.

I dont bear malice to either player, but it saddens me that a fine member of our community has now been barred.

Dom... if I am doing you a diservice then Im sorry, but Im sure I will get the lowdown from other players this comming weekend. Possibly youself once I suss who you are.

GL

Everybody in my position would of done exactly the same or more. I asked for a ruling off the management as i believed and still believe i was in the right. I have

spoken to many people in the casino who said I was well within my rights to do as i did. If this happened to any of you or anyone else in the casino, they would of

done exactly the same. I have just been on the phone to Aspers who informed me i was not banned for cheating at all and it was for my attitude towards a manager

after a decision that was made. Thank you all .

I will be at the casino this weekend Owen , so ill be happy to discuss what happened and hear other peoples opinions.

Dom,

If you know who I am give me a tweak at the weekend.

whats your name? (don't say owen lol)

Actually it is Owen, but most know me as Mac.

The question is did you angle shoot by hiding your chips or did the other player angle shoot by refusing to pay????

I'm sure evrybody would have asked for a management ruling but then that doesn't effect the key question above.

with a son called craig?

Thats the one..

sorry for my ignorance but what does angle shoot mean?

Hi mac, i talk to your every week and i will talk to you this weekend. You no me pretty well.

Playing a technicality, rather than the cards or the player