blonde poker forum

50NL game last night,  UTG+1 has just sat at table and has full buy in of $50.

UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, I have KK and raise to $2.50.  Folds to caller who raises to $5.00.  I've raised to $15 and he's pushed all in for $50.

Should I know at this point he has aces or is it an insta call?   Are people with KK/QQ/AK likely to push all in too or would they flat call the $15, see the flop then push?

Ta kindly.

I fear that this has all the symptoms of AA - mini-reraise followed by 5 bet push.  I don't think I could fold vs an unknown at this level though getting nearly 2-1.

It does smell of AA but against an unknown it could be jj,qq or ax, i have to call.

I don't know many people who limp reraise with JJ or AX though.

Call, and spike a king on the flop.

that's the bit I didn't do :blonde:

smells big of AA 1st hand cos he wants action , but im sure he could do this with KK QQ also

Might be just trying to set-up a loose/reckless image early on, seen new players to a table do this and then start playing properly after blowing 3 or 4 buy-ins. Probably not the case in this scenario but curiosity would force me to call (probably why I'm not much good at cash, "curiosity killed the..........Flea" in this case).

That's not so bad then thanks.  I was annoyed at myself for calling last night but then I was thinking that I've seen it done with a lot worse hands than AA so maybe it wasn't such a bad call (apart from it obviously was) 

Glad to know I'm not the only one that would have called and perhaps it's not such a bad call

As usual, thank you :)

One slight point tho is that the only reason I would call is the way played i.e pot odds.  You could have flat called the mini-reraise and perhaps got away from the hand in the face of continued aggression. 

Yeah I've been mulling that over too.  The flop came ten high and I'm not sure I could have got out of it then, although I may have I suppose.

It's always important to specify how many players at the table as decisions often differ from full ring and short-handed games.

If this was a full ring NL 200 (I don't know anything about NL 50 play) then this is AA the vast majority of the times. "Correct" play would be to call the re-raise and fold to non-King flop.

Correct play to call hoping to hit your 9-1 (editied thanks to bongo) and fold to anything below King High on the flop with the second best starting hand??? Who plays KK like that?

The reraise to 15 was a nice play and you just got unlucky that he had the only hand beating you but as people have said before the limp-min raise-all in is not a gd way to play JJ or QQ so maybe the clues were there but always gonna be hard to lay it down especially with no info on the player.

Closer to 9-1 than 25-1, and it would depend on the game but I often fold kings in cash.

Folding KK isnt a problem but calling is never an option.

If silo was trapping after putting him on a hand such as 1010/JJ,maybe then, but why would you call when you are, as a guesstimation, 80% sure he had a premium hand (QQ/KK/AA) so you either raise get reriased and fold or raise get reraised and gamble hoping he doesnt have AA. Im never flat calling a flop when im almost sure he has AA or flat calling him and risking him setting up cheaply with a lesser PP.

And i would consider folding Kings a hell of a lot more in MTT's than i would in a cash game.

Why?

I'm pretty much the exact opposite!

Because in MTTS (and STT's) there are various situations where it is +EV folding down premium hands at key times in a satellite or bubble situation, even when you know you are ahead (+ You only get one chance).

In a cash game, unless you are dead certain the other guy has AA, its always going to be -EV to fold or not play that hand strongly (Theres always another reload if you happen to be wrong)

Again im not saying i dont lay down KK pre flop in cash but unless he has given me a lot of information previously (which silo didnt have) then the fold is a lot more difficut here.

IMO the only merit in 4 betting this hand is to fold to a push.  Limp - mini reraise is screaming aces.  By flat calling the minireraise in position you arent necessarily showing weakness, as if you had AA another raise might lose AK/KK/QQ.  If someone spikes a set in these circumstances then so be it, they hardly had lavish implied odds.  I would rather give an unknown opponent credit these days for not being a maniac and avoid getting stacked off unless I have reason to believe that he grossly overplays AK/QQ.   

 ;iagree;

(Assuming full-ring $1/$2- as previously mentioned.)

I assure you that my advice is the optimum way to play the hand. As I mentioned before, you can be pretty certain that villain has AA so re-raising/folding to a push is the worst possible option (except perhaps for re-rasing/calling an all-in.)

You are ~7.5/1 to flop a set, but 9/1 are better odds to use because that accounts for your flopped set to remain ahead by the river. (Where on earth did you get your original 25/1 quote from!!?) The villain's [terrible] min-raise is giving you ~21/1 so it's a very easy call.

Having the 2nd nuts here is completely irrelevant unless you emphasise the "2nd" part of that statement. Heads up here, KK should be played the same as 22.

Regarding "And i would consider folding Kings a hell of a lot more in MTT's than i would in a cash game."

This is completely illogical and you're losing equity both in MTTs and at the cash table. Here is a regurgitation from my blog regarding committing pre with KK/AK at mid-stake full-ring:

The depth of your (and opponents') stacks have a massive impact on your decisions. The shorter the stacks, the easier it is to play.

All half-decent starting hands are shoving hands when your (or opponent's) stacks are short enough. However there is an upper limit for shoving with all hands except AA.

Most players are happy to get it all in with KK pre-flop. "I'm only behind to one hand." What if you both had 1,000BB would you call an all-in then? What about 10,000BB? A ridiculous example of course, but it's used to illustrate a point- that there is an upper limit.

AK (and all hands) play better in tournaments for shoving/calling an all-in because the nature of play is very different. The idea is to accumalte chips, so people play looser and are prepared to gamble a little more. Even at the first level of an MTT players routinely shove/call with all types of hands AJ+, KQ, any pair (obviously the lower the buy-in, the greater the range.) So AK is in pretty good shape in most cases- at least, it's rarely a big dog.

However cash is not about being the chip leader. You can't "bully" at the cash table because you have a big stack. The is no advantage to having more or less chips than someone else, so there is no urgency to gamble in order to build a stack- so players are typically more selective with hands that they are prepared to get it all in with pre-flop.

Now, there will also be maniacs and other players who are just clueless. Many cash players are poor because they play 100BB full-ring cash the same way as they see players on the TV playing short-handed Final Table shallow stack poker. If you have this information on a player then you have to factor it in to your decision of course.

On most occassions though, faced with the situation that we have here, you won't be up against a complete maniac or muppet- so you base your decision on your experiences of having been in this situation before and your experiences of witnessing others in this situation.

General I wouldn't want to commit myself to more than 50BB pre-flop with KK. With AK, it's probably around 25-30BB however it's also situation dependent. E.g. If I'm in the BB with AK and facing a 3.5BB raise from a player with 25BB then I'll raise him to, say, 15BB (and get the rest in on the flop if not raised again pre.) However if there's a 4BB raise from the UTG deep-stack and then a raise to 9BB from a 30BB mid-position stack then your decision is much harder. His re-raise here looks strong and also you don't know if the UTG will raise again.

Excellent post as usual.

That is an excellent post and I will read it tomorrow - I wasn't expecting it tbh :D
eeek:  No it wasn;t full ring, it was 6 handed!  I forgot I thought I'd give it a go

I agree its  a great post and i stand corrected on the KK.

But the biggest thing that has cut down on my tourney exits/cash profit margins is not to overplay AK, im sure i cant be alone in those findings!

Ditto, but i hate tournies, this isa cash hand btw, but im with kp on this one,