blonde poker forum

Another thread brought up the topic of tells and reading people at the table.  It got me thinking about the value of tells, and if they are over-rated/valued, or if they're the difference between some good players and some very good players.

As many people play predominately online, betting patterns are probably what many look out for first and foremost.

A question to the seasoned live players (and those who might not be as well seasoned), when you sit at a table do you have a 'checklist' of points you look out for or do you just try to observe everything you can and decipher what you can?  If someone was making the move to live play from online what one bit of advice would you give them with regards to observation at the table?

if i reraise I have the nuts.  Fold.

FYP

glad to see you agree with the fold.

kin is tight weak though.

you clearly know him more intimately than I do.

or I just look at him from a different position?

 ;carlocitrone;

Apart from an old guy who exposed his cards every time he looked at them, I have never noticed a reliable tell, ever.

So you don't rely on them as part of your game?

;D

I rely on physical info at least as much as betting patterns. Masking the strength of your hand by varying your betting is much easier than controling your physiology.

It's obviously not like in the movies
when he has hand A he touches body part B

In my post on the KK thread I wrote this...

In my martial arts group we spend a lot of time discussing body language. Reading aggressive and passive signals in others and learning to spot when those signals are fake or exaggerated. Also sometimes trying to appear passive when poised to throw your knockout hook, or conversely, trying to psych someone out with aggression, when you'd rather it not get physical. Sounds a lot like poker to me.

The old advice is sound. when you're not in a hand, practice putting active players on cards based on betting patterns AND behaviour / body language.

Something I did from early on in my live poker is make sure I got to the bar early and keep my eyes and ears peeled. This is another overlap with the martial arts. I know it sounds paranoid, but a good martial artist should be assessing almost everyone around them for threat levels. It mostly happens on a subconscious level until a potential threat is picked up, then it snaps into a conscious assessment. Again, poker is the same.
How a player conducts himself at the bar, buying in, taking his seat, arranging his chips, looking at his cards, etc are all building a picture before your first clash with him. Mostly these things will be going on subconsciously but the odd thing will attract your attention. You're using these 'feelings' about a player to assist in your decision making later on.

Applying some of this to the OP hand, an analogy would be;
Him quietly - "Give me your money!"
You calmly but forcefully - "You've picked the wrong guy to mug here mate, I'm quite handy."
Him Frothing at the mouth -
"I HAVE A GUN AND I'M GOING TO SHOOT YOU IN THE FACE!!!!"
Now you can either hope he actually only has a banana in his pocket and stand and fight, or you can give him the benefit of the doubt and run for the hills, waiting for the next time when the conversation goes;

Him quietly - "Give me your money!"
You calmly but forcefully - "You've picked the wrong guy to mug here mate, I'm quite handy."
Him Meekly - Sorry to bother you mate, I'll go and pick on someone else"

you're looking to build a picture of your opponents' behaviours and you're trying to understand why they play like they do.

The Psychology Of Poker by Schoonmaker is one of the most influencial poker books I've ever read.

I believe the only true reads can be taken from betting patterns and knowledge of how they have played previous hands, forget all this eye contact, shakey hands, nervous tick rubbish.

i disagree.

The more nervous a player is, the more info they give off physically.

Some people are better at masking their physiology than other.

Against certain players I play against a lot tells are gold dust

Against others, of a higher standard, they are useless

More players also employ reverse tells these days

Its player dependent but against randoms I would proceed with caution but Kinboshi for example I see loads that turn out to be reliable when watching an APAT National for example

You have a tell on me.  If I'm betting, I've got a good hand ;D.

But seriously, in the APAT events many of the players are new to the game (including me), and I've benefited from reading players a number of times (once quite dramatically). 

So if you're not worried about studying people for 'tells', what do you start looking for when watching their game?  Do you try to look for general things from each player - working out who's loose, who's tight, etc., or do you start on a few players at the table and try to take more specific notes on them such as how they play their drawing hands, how the play from certain positions, etc.?

If tells are important (or even exist at all) how do some online players earn more per day than i do in a year at work??

because they play at levels where you can win a fortune

and of course have great maths/theory and gamble

Poker is a game of incomplete information. As such discounting ANY information that is freely available at a live table is a little foolish. Betting patterns and behaviour are pieces in the jigsaw of information. The most important aspect of any type of information gathering is how it all relates to the history of your opponent. How does the present behaviour relate to previous behaviour when a hand was shown?

That said the most important advice for any live game is to pay maximum attention at all times. If you don't know how people usually behave you wont know what their behaviour means at any single given point in time.

pot

lmao

I haven't played enough live to really have a view on this, but my suspicion would be that if the average player consciously goes looking for tells he/she is likely to end up confusing or second-guessing themselves. Everyone "reads" people on a daily basis, not just in poker. But they do so instinctively and subconsciously. Rationalising those subconscious thought processes is usually very difficult, because there's so much information and experience that has gone into your "gut feeling" about the other person. My guess would be that poker's the same. People make good reads based on instinct, not on some sort of consciously applied checklist. Just making sure you're paying attention and watching people with an open mind, and not trying to override your instinct by deliberating about what this or that mannerism might mean might be the best way to go.

ah - the old blonde PLO rebuys.  I learnt from the master ;)

very good advice:)  you can get it wrong when you over analyse so letting the instincts take the lead sounds sensible.

Tells very much exist and they should be looked out for constantly.

Take the world series final this year when Rahme check raised Jerry (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=1063) Yang (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=1063) all in with KK on an Ace high board, it looked strong until he for some reason decided to open his mouth. I immediately said he looked so weak it was alarming, yang called and he said bye bye, if you watch it watch yang perks right up as soon as rahme speaks, he knows straight away.

My biggest live win i can attribute about 50% to one tell i picked up. The guy looked at his cards as he got them, if he squeezed the 2nd one, then the first one was good and he just looked the straight at the 2nd one the 1st was crap, i took his blinds many times and knew when i could expext some action when i had a hand.

People are less calm when they have a monster with hearts pumping and jugular veins throbbing, its helped me lay down many hands i could have busted with.

I was playing a festival event and got AA UTG with 30 or so left, having struggled to find a spot for ages to get some chips

I limped and waited for the raise. None came. At the end of the day a friend on the table said to me that she could see my heart pumping when I limped and that she made her mind up then to fold

One weekend comp a few months back I received a magnificent turn card giving me a full house in a multi way pot. The friend on my immediate left told me, post comp, that my breathing completely changed when the card fell. Fortunately the third player in the pot didn't have a scooby, lol

I consciously now have worked on controlling breathing and the like in such situations, and have a few mind tricks to stay relaxed and not alter my physical patterns


Tells may not be for everyone and I respect that. I use them a lot on certain players, not at all on others.

Each to their own

i absolutley cannot look at the cards as they come out, i stare at the opponents chin or something, wait a little bit then check the cards on the board. If a card comes out that makes my hand and i see it hit the felt my heart starts pumping and is to much to control, something about the drama of the card being dealt gets me going.

check out rahme on 3.09

http://www.pokertube.com/ShowMovie.aspx?movieID=b2e6e483-c4b2-4b96-ac74-87df62265819&comeFrom=Search&StartPage=4&pIndex=4&PageView=0&FreeText=world%20series%20of%20poker%202007&OrderBy=Latest

The times Ive played live, and thats not been a lot (maybe 5 times in total), ive always felt more excited when ive hit cards and ive felt my own heart beating. Now this would be a real tell if someone could see through my ribs and see it pumping away. I do wonder however, if there are associated symptons of this excitment such as raised respirations and if anyone would be able to spot it. Im pretty good at controlling myself but that feeling of your heart going like crazy feels at the time like everyone can see it....lol  I have noticed as ive observed live game play, that when players hit, sometimes they appear to take one deep breath as if to compose themselves. This of course may be an assumption on my part and an over analysis of a simple breath or sign...lol  Human behaviour is a very interesting study but we aften dont get it right.
Im interested to know if your heart beat has calmed down over the years when you hit big or is this excitment every  bit the same as when you first started playing?

Online, everything is mostly done by instinct without much fear or concern.  But live, I have a HUGE problem with my breathing patterns when I'm in a hand.  Been working on controlling it a bit better, but the problem still exists.  Might have to find some mind tricks for meself as well. 

for those with problems on heart beating and breathing. I really recommend not looking at the board for a while, even better if you haven't got to act first, be thinking about what your action will be if the card is good/bad. Then when you look you will feel calmer about your decision with a good idea of your action already decided.

Laxie, don't worry about your breathing problems. as long as you do the same thing whether you have the goods or you are bluffing it makes not a jot of difference.

I often shake when I'm in a big pot, but I do it regardless of my hole cards. I used to be embarrassed about it because I thought it made me look like a novice, but now I don't give a monkeys. You worry about your game, let them worry about your breathing.

agreed, i've seen top professionals shaking in big pots in big tournaments.

Awwww, cheers lads.  Will keep your words ringing in me ear from now on when I'm in that situation.  It's the one thing had me truly worried for the upcoming Waterford Festival.  I do it as much in a €20 buy in as a €100 buy in, but never played one as big as this before, so reckon I'll need to wear a top with a VERY high neck line!     rotflmfao

have a look at this clip.
The guys name is Bob Spour. He's former SAS
the first 4 mins he talks about his SAS selection, but after that he touches briefly on controlling fear in different situations, in particular he mentions stage fright when he did a performing arts degree.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=GR6amkc_cZ8

Fear is sometimes caused by, and always worsened by lack of confidence.
The greater confidence you have in your ability, the less fear you have, and the less information you give off.
Of course, there's always an element of uncertainty in poker, which is why even the best get nervous sometimes.

No - get the artillery out (so to speak).  Use all the weapons at your disposal!

( . )( . )  ;ashamed;

See there is the inconsistency, your heart pumps faster, your breathing becomes heavier and your hands may shake when you have a monster hand or nothing at all!!
So how can you read these "tells"??

BTW someone once told me nerves are the fear of losing.

that's kind of what Bob's saying in the clip

also, the inconsistency is the point.
Mannerism A doesn't mean Hand B

you're looking for inconsistencies in someones behaviour that, coupled with information from their betting, leads you to a conclusion

people looking for players to play with their earlobe when they're bluffing are going to be waiting a long time

As a previous poster mentioned new players can second guess themselves when looking for tells because in fact they don't really know what they're looking for... ooh he's shaking, he must be nervous ergo he must be bluffing - as it turns out he has the stone cold nuts and is just on a 'rush'.

Although there can be some very obvious tells, even amongst the top players, ( I challenge anyone to find me a clip where Hellmuth loses a hand after the turn where he has his elbows on the table and his bunched hands on his cheeks), the average newbie is going to struggle to take in all the info for all the players at the table.

For me, I break down what I'm looking for when I sit down to two initial observations.

The first, which I think is greatly under valued, is chip treatment. It is unbelievably reliable to watch the guy who has picked up AA/KK... if he is riffling he will stop when the play gets to 2/3 players before him and go no where near them again until it's his turn to act.

Anyone who flopped a monster will try and look disinterested and go no where near their stack... whereas normally they'd be chip tricking allover the shop.

Secondly, make sure you watch how they place their chips over the line and match it to the result of the hand. The nonchalant splash can either mean I've got the nuts or I've got f*ck all...doesn't seem helpful?... well watch the splash and watch the result and you'll have a fair idea next time.

BTW... when playing inexperienced players I'm always very wary of the careful count out and deliberate placement of neat chips into the pot.


*dons flameproofs*

Tells are a BIG part of live poker.

They come in many forms - movement, eyes, chip handling, betting, speaking.

They are player dependent of course , and one tell on one person is completely different for another.

Richard and I exchanged tells we had on each other - none of us knew our own tell. Mine was the speed of betting , Richards was breathing.

If you watch good professionals, they give off nothing. But watch your usual casino regulars and you can pick up many things.

I for one use my tell (betting speed) against people that know about it - the reverse tell that Richard speaks off.

I have many tells on the people that regularly play at Luton - and I know Richard does aswell.

It is Human nature to form patterns of behaviour - these are what to look for and also be aware of yourself.

I agree with IFM (yes it pains me to say it) that nervous breathing/shaking can mean a monster or a bluff - the key is to know who does what with what.

I know of 2 tells i have on myself and I love it when i see people recognise what they are.

It doesnt affect my game at all because as long as i know that they are aware of them, i can use them to manipulate their plays in the hand.

Along the lines of what M3 is saying, i think it is very important to be able to reverse tell as much as it is to spot tells in others.

Im no expert and dont claim to be but thanks to someone, i now have 6 or 7 tells i look for in each player and more than often is the case, they demonstarte at least one of them.

And believe it or not im sure even the best players have tells, its just mostly they are too arrogant to admit this.

you tell is simple you put a chip into the pot and we all know your about to get lucky

And im more than happy for ppl to keep thinking that  ;D

I had a brief chat with a guy at walsall a year or 2 back that went something like this:

him "you have a tell"

me (inwardly sighing) "do i?"

him "yes, it's very obvious"

me "ok"

him "you do!!"

me "right"

him "i'd tell you but you're on my table"

me "don't tell anyone else then"

A couple of hours later........well it was ironic.
true story.

Luton is a tell-house. I have plenty, but i randomise my action so much i hide a few. Apart from the re-steal hush, i must work on that.

if i had a tell i would want to know what it was so i knew what i was supposed to do

cause boy i never know what i am doing so how is anyone else supposed to know

if someone asks ' is it my turn'??


fold

i never he had QQ


lol

LOL I remember once actually asking if it was my turn and looking down to see Aces...I thought, sh*t, I aint getting paid here.

You "make" the tell by seeing their hand after exhibiting the same behaviour on more than one occasion - btw you get much much more info when you're not in a hand than when you are, when you're in the hand you want to put them on something specific to either let you in or out of the hand feeling justified, when you're not involved in the hand you are much more objective and open to reads.

Without seeing showdowns (or players that flip their hand when they don't get called) then yes, the tell is meaningless.  If you're in a big tournie with long structure - pick a player and watch them every time they are in a hand for an hour when you're not (and try not to make it obvious as people change behaviour when they know they are being watched). Then switch to another and build up a mental library.

However, don't see a "tell" twice and label it as permanent, keep your mind open and be prepared to switch it off as better players switch their tells ;)  If it swiotches then the player is aware, is probably good and therefore not worth trying to label too much, only bad/inexperienced players do the same thing over and over without trying to change it.  They are the ones you are after, I know cause I've had that little fish being circled by nasty sharks feeling on more than one occasion at a big event lol

stoneii

The first hand I ever played in Vegas, a WSOP sat, 1st hand I get the button and AA.

Everyone folds to me, I raise, I win the blinds.

The tell......manic giggling.

Apart from one close friend, who always shakes when in a pot anyway, I've never found a reliable tell from any players.
However, my 'feel' at the table, is quite acute. I don't get to play live often but always notice how much I can put players on hands. Following my gut instincts has enabled some good lay downs.

lol