blonde poker forum

This happened twice with the same person In the last APAT regional event at the Vic.

First time, Matey had raised preflop, all folds to someone else who moves all in.  Fold back to Matey and he thinks, then turns his cards over and looks to get a reaction from the other player.

Second time, I think he was in the big blind.  All folds to a raise all in before him, fold to him, then again, he turns his cards over and starts to think about what to do.

Both times there was only the two people in the pot, everyone else has folded.

Is he allowed to show his cards to try and get a reaction?

i don't know about the rules at APAT but I personally don't see the harm as there is no more action to go. Having said that I think most places have it as a nono.

no

he has been watching too much jamie gold winning his way to wsop 2006

its ok in some cash games but never in a tourny

As with most things in poker...it depends. Most places will let you do it...some won't.

Certainly, as long as there no action behind him then he can (if permitted)...if there is still action to come then his hand is dead (IIRC).

Personally, I think it's a 'Hollywood'/'Look at me, aren't I a clever clogs' play for the TV generation.

APAT Rule 69:

I agree, I don't think it does any harm if there's no more action, but I don't like it because they're not going to get a read - they're just doing it for effect.

Did he end up calling either of the all ins?

And what did he have if he did?

there ya go. thanks for looking it up Paulie :)

I don't like it - If I was the person who had gone all in and the other person turned their cards over without acting, I would presume they had folded face up and may well chuck my own cards in the muck.  What would the ruling be if that happened?

I think you'd have just chucked your hand away Claire missed out.

I don't like it either, I think it's trying to get an unfair advantage.  Not sure that the hand should be declared dead though, perhaps it should be taken as a call.

Can't remember what he had.  I think he had AT once, the BB one.  I think in both instances he folded.  I can't even remember that to be honest :D  I've slept since then, but I was thinking about it last night and wondered if it were allowed or not.

Just out of interest, whaty do people think of the APAT rule? Would you like it changed to not allow such a move?

This is what I would expect 99 times out of a 100. The only exception would be if he had a high pair or a big ace - i.e. hands that they would always call with anyway.

It's trying to say, "I'm a great reader of people, and I can tell you've got a really strong hand so I'll fold", but what it actually says is, "I watch to much telly".

I'm not sure it does say I'm a great reader of people.  To me it says "I'm a bad reader of people so I'll try and get an advantage by showing you my hand to see if you make an obvious reaction, then I'll fold if I still can't tell"

If it's generally allowed in tournament poker then I think it should be left alone, but if you don't get away with it in the WSOP, then you shouldn't in APAT either.

I'd prefer, "A player who exposes his or her cards during the play will incur a 15 minute penalty, but will not have his or her hand killed."

And ensure that the TD's always enforce it.

Therein lies the problem at the APAT regionals.  I got the feeling they were looking forward to us leaving last time, can't seem them enforcing something that will make the tourney last even longer.

I'd agree with that.

dead hand for me and a 15 min penalty and  a kick in the numb nuts

Hands up time here.

I did this once at an officepoker tourney. It wasn't for any other reason than to let the table know what a difficult decision I was faced with.

From memory I had top pair, 2nd nut flush draw and o-e str8 draw after the flop and my mate Stevie had pushed all in. I had dwelled quite a bit and rather than being faced with being "clocked" I turned over my cards saying "this is the dilema I have" This was final table, last 5 or so and effectively was for my tournament.

There was no malice intended or taken, no seeking to get a reaction.

Someone mentioned at the time that my hand should be dead and Neil (Glorious on Blonde) who runs the tourney deemed that this should not be allowed. I accepted this decision and mucked.

This was a genuine error and not an attempt at angle shooting, I didn't even look at my mate during this time.

For what it is worth, I now believe anyone disclosing cards in any way before betting has been completed should have their hand declared dead. I too often have seen players showing their cards to friends on the rail which I believe should be discouraged. Again we had this a couple of times in our tourneys and Neil put a stop to it.

Geo.

personally, yes.  If someone's intentionally shown their cards knowing that there is still action to take place, I would favour a ruling that their hand is dead.

If you expose your hand before the showdown, I think the hand should be declared dead.

It avoids a whole number of situations of the other player showing their cards and thinking that the other player's called (when in fact their card would be dead as someone is still to act). 

The reason I thought it was not allowed was that you're not allowed to declare your hand verbally (this is my understanding and could well be wrong - you can lie about what you've got though), and showing your cards is the same thing.  It's trying to get a reaction from the other player.  You could also get a reaction from other players at the table who might have folded a card that would beat the player who is yet to act from the cards that are on the board (and so indicating that it's correct to call).

So no, I don't like the rule.

easy solution any hand that is revealed intentionally then that hand is declared dead.but then what if someone does it unitentionally???

it is ussually quite clear whether someone exposes a hand or a card intentionally or not. I have never been in any doubt when someone's done that any ways. Unintentionally will therefore only be a slap on the back of the head..and of course a video of it would have to be posted on youtube. I'm thiking it will get more kids interested in poker when they see they can slap people around a bit...as opposed to just being allowed to act like a slow-witted ape and getting a sponsorship deal at pokerstars that way.

As long as it is a heads up pot I don't see the problem. As for the APAT rule I think the word "may" needs to come out. Saaying you may get a penalty for exposing your cards makes the rule not a rule because you don't know the consequences of your actions.

Sure it's a rule..just like a law is a law. You 'break it' knowing there could be a penalty but it's up to the judge (or in this case, the TD) to decide what that penalty is to be.

In the case of the APAT rule..the 'ultimate' penalty is there in black and white in the interests of clarity.

In my opinion, as long as there is no subsequent action to follow then the hand is live. Exposing your hand BEFORE you bet in the face of further action is just plain suicidal and you might as well kill it.

For me, this is the important aspect. Allowing the exposed cards to play is far too open to abuse from angle-shooters, trying to induce a muck.

I'd have the hand declared dead and an 'ARSEHOLE' sticker placed on the player.

Harsh, but fair.

PS In Waterford one is definitely allowed to expose one card in the cash games, in fact on my table there were three of them, one of whom was an old bloke with blonde hair, with one card stuck to their foreheads.. ;whistle;

I dont see a problem with it if its heads up in a tourney and in the cash games i play pretty much anything goes, i like it.
At the end of the day he is giving you free information of the cards he is playing.

It's a tournament, one player still active is all-in.

It's a complete angle shoot to try and get a read before ARSEHOLE decides to commit his chips.

Dougie.

Geo, if i was you I wouldnt of been able to put my chips in quick enough before turning my cards over. :)

At a Grosvenor run tournie the hand would be classed as dead if the cards are shown whilst the person is facing a bet or if they show the cards to anyone else

I agree with that rule.

So, that'll be interesting to see how that situation is dealt with at an APAT event at a Grosvenor.

They adopt the apat rules for such events but the apat members of staff dont have gaming licences so they can not have anything to do with rulings ect, they can point out apat rules.

It depends if the dealers and the TD are aware of the APAT rule on this.  I'd guess most aren't.

A good td should be aware of all rules that are being used, so yes most at Grosvenor wont know

rotflmfao