blonde poker forum

Hold'em No Limit - Level III (25/50)
9-max Seat #8 is the button

Seat 1: Robin Lamb (2960 in chips)
Seat 2: Shawn Wayne (4570 in chips)
Seat 3: TheGani (8035 in chips)
Seat 4: Grenn Crab (15038 in chips)
Seat 5: BigDog1858 (19215 in chips)
Seat 6: Marbik (4432 in chips)
Seat 7: EvanOwnsYou (14550 in chips)
Seat 8: kinboshi (4750 in chips)
Seat 9: KicsiShane (4280 in chips)

KicsiShane: posts small blind 25
Robin Lamb: posts big blind 50

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to kinboshi [Js Jd]
Shawn Wayne: folds
TheGani: folds
Grenn Crab: calls 50
BigDog1858: folds
Marbik: folds
EvanOwnsYou: folds
kinboshi: raises 200 to 250
KicsiShane: folds
Robin Lamb: folds
Grenn Crab: calls 200

*** FLOP *** [7s Jc 8s]
Grenn Crab: bets 450
kinboshi: ?

Now, that's a nice flop (obviously).  So, my dilemma is how to make the most from the hand, and how concerned should I be about him catching something that beats me?

I think this is an area I struggle with at times.  Basically, I think I want him to hang himself - he's come out betting, so unless he's got T9, I'm currently ahead and do I want to play it slowly and just call and then raise him on the turn if he comes out betting again?  Or do I just raise him now and either take the pot down or make him make a mistake with a call.

Appreciate people's thoughts on how they play in similar situations.

flat call after a suitable dwell

raise most turns, occasionally flat call a complete brick

hmmm I reraise here most times against most oppos..he knows you took the lead pre-flop and if he's hit here he expects you to reraise him so he can push..so I do him that favour and raise to 1k.

1150 to go

Raisy daisy.

Make it 1200 to go, the thing is that scare cards seem bad to you but if he isn't drawing to them it will kill his action as well. So lets make the most of our monster, plus our raise can be many things including a bluff from the pov of villan.

yep i agree with that hand on that flop you want to get it in now now on a turn that could come a 9/10 or flush  then what are u going to do ?   got to get it in now on that flop really,   now a j 9 6 rainbow flop i flat call but not that flop  so many hands that would call your pre-raise connect to that flop pray he has 78 or simlar and get it in now

raisy daisy. This is prolly the worst flop to give a free card with trips on.

OK.  So with a less threatening flop, more would be happy to call here, but a raise now to make him pay to draw and we're happy to win the pot here an now.

Grenn Crab: bets 450
kinboshi: raises 750 to 1200
Grenn Crab: calls 750

*** TURN *** [7s Jc 8s] [3c]

Grenn Crab: checks
kinboshi: ?


To me this check looked like he was after the flush, and he now wants to see the river as cheaply as possible.  How much should I bet (I should be betting here as I don't want to give him a free card to make his flush do I?)?

I started the hand with 4,750 chips (he had 15,038).  There's currently  2,975 in the pot and I have 3,300 back. 

2k thank you please. If he has a good FD this might keep him in..if not..well you got a tidy pot

Posted by: kinboshi

This is the original question and the answer is centered around the mentality of both you and the other player. I don't think it helps to get dragged into playing the cards you can actually see to produce a one size fits all strategy.

How you approach this hand is going to be entirely player specific but the ultimate goal is to get the chips in the middle. What is your opponent's mentality? How is he going to respond to a raise on the flop based on his style of play? If you can successfully get all the chips in on the flop with this guy then so much the better.

However, the flop raise isn't going to work against every sort of player and so calling is going to be the best strategy to extract chips from some.

Posted by: kinboshi
.
It is this mentality that prevents a player making the most of an opportunity...because the "threat" is perceived rather than actual most of the time. The goal to get chips in is more important than the actual turn card. If you loose sight of this goal and start worrying about what the turn could bring then you are just playing the cards on the board and this allows a good player to pressure you.

How can you assess whether the turn actually improves your opponent's hand? You can't...so worrying about what you see is in conflict to what you want to happen...and that is making the most of this opportunity. You were prepared to go all-in on the flop...and the turn and river were going to come as is...so the actual turn card is irrelevant...it is not as important as getting the chips in. If the turn comes a spade and your opponent holds say the Aspades then the turn is a great card for you, not a worry, because it will be the trigger to getting the chips in...and that's why you only called on the flop. A good player with a small pair may use the turn danger card to try and push a lost cause and there are many other eventualities that wont mean you are suddenly beat.

Of couse a brick is much better (and more likely) because it gets your opponent pushing you off your non-existent draw. And just as he is using the board to put you on a draw you don't have you shouldn't fall into the trap of putting HIM on a draw HE doesn't have or you may not make the most of this opportunity.

You will get sucked out on some of the time true but much much more of the time you will paid by inferior hands that would fold to pressure on the flop.

I don't really get your post here Mantis..are you advocating a flat call on the flop?

Unless he's a good player then there is no real need to get tricky here. I'd just go ahead and raise him

if he has two pair, or a lower set then he'll pay you
If has top pair he'll pay you
If he has flush or straight draw he'll pay you

If he has absolutely nothing then calling will not get you any more money from him as the turn card is unlikey to improve his hand and he'll probably just check - fold to you.

Also this is not the best flop to be slow playing on as there are both flush & straight draws out there

Sorry Boldie. What I'm saying is your motivation to raise the flop should be solely because this is what you think will get this particular opponent to bite. Your motivation to raise the flop should not be because you are worried about pushing your opponent off a "draw" or because you are worried about what the turn may bring. It is this "worry" that prevents players making the most of an opportunity...because the worry is manufactured and often not real.

I couldn't give an answer about how I would play here without information about my opponent. If my opponent has shown a tendancy to fold to raises after betting out then raising here wouldn't make sense. If my opponent has shown that he wont be bullied by raises then raising here makes perfect sense. If my opponent has shown he continues to fire bullets then calling is a good idea. The board is not a priority at the moment.

The fact is that you certainly have the best hand right now and probably the best draw as well so pushing your hand unecessarily because of worry is counter-productive to what you are trying to achieve. If he has say 9-9 he will push again on the 3 turn and that is what you want. Hands like sets and 2 pair will always fire again on the turn but the point is that if his hand is weakish then the ONLY way to get paid from hands like this is to call the flop and hope he wants to push you off whatever you're drawing to. He thinks that if you had a made hand you would re-raise the flop because of the draw possibilities right?

betting anything but all in on the turn screams monster. he'll know this and defo won't pay you off on the river unless he hits. and probably not call anyway unless he has 2 pair or a lower set cause theres nothing extra to be made on the river for him. i check the turn everytime. it looks weak and will induce a bluff if he misses his draw. i'm willing to bust with this hand in this spot so after checking the turn will at least call any river bet.

Posted on: December 02, 2007, 10:29:10 pmPosted by: temp0r 

Yep, I think this is a good line to take. Your oppo doesn't appear to want to press his hand on the turn so giving him an opportunity to press again on the river is a good idea. Checking the turn gives him the green light to do this. Like temp0r said, all-in is probably your only disguised bet and it is quite likely this will loose our oppo.

It is a really good example of how you are using the drawing board to your advantage rather than seeing it as something to fear. A brick on the river gives your oppo the chance to decide you missed the draw and push a hopeless hand that folds to heat on the turn.

Whatever action you would normally take on this flop if you had As Ks; As Qs; QQ - AA; 77; 88; 109; 23o against an unknown 95BBs deep you should do now. I'd make it 1400 to play with all of the above and get the rest in upon the next action. And, as such, that's what I do here.