blonde poker forum

GAME #753707358: Texas Hold'em NL $1.00/$2.00 2007-12-10 13:25:26
Table Sir Barton
Seat 1: PokeriKunkku ($50.78 in chips)
Seat 2: Eatmyraise ($189.55 in chips) DEALER
Seat 3: ByrnKincaid ($198.00 in chips)
Seat 4: BubiAce ($215.92 in chips)
Seat 5: TheDevonian ($68.65 in chips)
Seat 6: CanURaise ($262.10 in chips)
Seat 7: HerrHOLLE ($203.00 in chips)
Seat 8: xarry ($197.00 in chips)
Seat 9: aegvbo185 ($235.65 in chips)
Seat 10: Vinichio ($200.00 in chips)
ByrnKincaid: Post SB $1.00
BubiAce: Post BB $2.00
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Eatmyraise []
Dealt to ByrnKincaid [Tc Td]
TheDevonian: Fold
CanURaise: Fold
HerrHOLLE: Fold
xarry: Fold
aegvbo185: Fold
Vinichio: Fold
PokeriKunkku: Fold
Eatmyraise: Raise $8.00

I only have a few hands on this guy, his stats so far are 11/8. seems kinda TAGish, I call here a lot if I know the player but TT can be hard to play post flop so lets raise.
 
ByrnKincaid: Raise $26.00
BubiAce: Fold
Eatmyraise: Call $19.00
*** FLOP *** [Ts Jh Th]

Oh my goody goody gosh, how can I get paid here, errrr he called a 3 bet, it's full ring, let's estimate his range at JJ+ AK. I'll bet smallish and hope to get raised.
ByrnKincaid: Bet $30.00
Eatmyraise: Call $30.00
*** TURN *** [Ah]

OK that's possibly a great card if it hit him, poss kill my action if it don't, I'll check and hope he either value bets or bluffs.
ByrnKincaid: Check
Eatmyraise: Check
*** RIVER *** [Qh]

Booo he didn't bet and now it's possible royalflushaments, well I have to value bet my quads don't I?
ByrnKincaid: Bet $60.00
Eatmyraise: Raise $132.55

WTF can he raise with here, if he has a big hand he must be scared that I have Kh here it's obv in my range so he has to just call, so he must have Kh himself?????? I can't fold quads tho can I?

I don't think about it too much. Call and chalk it up as 1 in a million if he has it. Hope he's bluffing.

- Reraising pre should be standard;
- Betting the flop should be standard once you have a high continuation bet frequency. Bear in mind that $30 is a good size here ONLY if that is the siize you would usually bet with your entire range, irrespective of whether you have hit or missed;
- BET THE TURN!! When he calls a reraise pre his range should be weighted towards pairs or Aces. It's not neccesary for us to worry too much about what he has here but checking his essentially burning money because while he may be floating the flop and take a stab every so often - you lose TONS of value from the one pair Ax part of his range that he stations two streets with. And if he has AJ or JJ or AA or KQ or 6h7h the money is going in anyway. BET THE TURN!!
- Now that you have slowplayed like a clever fox and are obviously beat, you should have no qualms making one more mistake. Call and hate poker - and never take this line again.

Please folks, just bet the balls of your monster hands. Really makes the game easier.

against an unknown you're prob right, against regs whose game I know obv not. some I need to mix it up some are too tight and you only get action from hands that beat you.


I try to mix up my bet sizing however why does that matter against an unknown?


QQ and KK fold, JJ and AA bet for me, I like betting if he has AK but maybe I only get one street of value out of him so can get it on river anyway????

Look, people like to call. That's what they do. Bet and see if AK; AQ; KK; QQ; 99 - 22; Ax decide to call. Sure, AK may not call two streets - but it might. Worth finding out.

Secondly, this guy is an unknown. But he's going to remember this hand. Everyone else at the table will take notes on this hand (if they're decent). We always need to balance and be aware of the long run. If you c - bet less than usual here and check the turn; don't be surprised if one of your opponents stations you light the next time you try to double barrel someone.

Ultimately, if they're folding to a turn bet, they're checking behind if you check. Just bet.

Your advice may be spot on for live FR or shorter games, but you don't play FR online and so I don't think you should be so adamant that your advice is correct given your lack of experience at these tables.

Calling pre is fine- especially given that he is an unknown.

Obviously, you have to bet flop.

Turn check is good. If villain has a big hand then all the money is likely to go in anyway.

If he doesn't then it allows him:

A. To bluff at the pot
B. To improve
C. To call a river bet that he wouldn't call on the turn.

E.g. He WILL fold KK/QQ if you bet here on the turn- but will call a river bet if hits a FH, straight, or flush. He may also call a value river bet with KK/QQ if the river blanks.

Also, as far as opponents at the table taking notes goes: If they're decent players at this level then they're playing multiple tables and therefore unable to take detailed notes about every hand- especially hands they are not involved in. And if they're not decent then they're picking their nose and watching TV anyway.

byronkincaid: You played the hand fine. Call the river bet of course. You're unlikely to have quads ever beaten again so it's worth getting stacked here just for the memory! :)

SM, I play FR because of you.

 ;tightend;

TY

ByrnKincaid: Call $72.55

Eatmyraise shows [Qd Qs]

:)

Well, all I can say is that if online FR plays like you guys say it does - I must wonder why the fuck would anyone play it?

Great check on the turn.

:)

Lucky i like a lot of your tournament advice in specific situations but i absolutely hate most of this. Always bet your monsters? Lets become totally exploitable and only slowplay medium/strong hands yeah? And re-raising pre with 1010 as your STANDARD line is pretty horrible. As a mixing play yeah, but that is shockingly bad advice. Not a knock, i like your views just think this was bad.

Love the awesome results orientated backslapping in this thread. WOW - WHAT A TURN CHECK!! Mystically outplayed him!! That two outer on the river really was all skill.

Whatever. Bet the turn.

My advice is not to bet every big hand and pot control everything else. It's just to understand that anything you do needs to be done across the whole range. And yeah, why wouldn't we three bet the 5th best starting hand as standard? Hate away.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tongue-in-cheek

I think I might post my whole full-ring database and let LL and SM go at it, these threads are hilarious.

Actually I think the debate's excellent, always good to look at all your actions from different angles. I suspect both approaches can work, even at full ring, though I lean towards supporting SM's M.O. I suspect if you played two or three tables at this level and were very strong post-flop then you'd be able to tear the games to bits by playing Lloyd's LAG (for full-ring) game. But trying to play 6-12 tables I think it would probably only be your account that would be in bits.

As Byron says, if you 3-bet TT here then the nits in this game, of which they are many many many, are only going to give you action when you're behind. Until they decide you're taking the piss, when they're going to start making more moves and giving you more headaches, because they know that you're 3-betting with hands that can't continue on a lot of flops. The bad players might give you action, but you're then going to end up in lots of tricky marginal spots post-flop. Obviously you want to be 3-betting more than just AA/KK, but something like a suited connector or two might be the easier way to do it, rather than getting too involved with TT/JJ just because they're the 4th and 5th best STARTING hands.

For what its worth, I play this particular hand the same way as Byron.

Lloyd - I know stats aren't the be-all and end-all, but out of interest what sort of stats would you guess (I say guess as I don't think from memory you really play FR) a standard TAG would play in this game? What stats would you consider LAG? What would you expect to play?

I know there are one or two players who have been able to play a fairly LAG 6-max style at FR with huge success, but I also know they're in a very very small minority.

I don't play ANY online FR. My cash experience online is 100% 6 - max. In any case, I'm a tournament donk more than anything else (only ~ 120k cash hands lifetime).

All that being said though, what I am reading above is mad. I mean, is the standard for FR 14 / 8 or something? And is the standard just to play 10 - 12 tables; 3 - bet KK+; set mine 22 - QQ; and open limp AQs+ or suited connectors? Then just hope that you out cooler the opposition enough and make the money off rakeback? I mean, wtf?

At 6 - max we HAVE to 3 - bet 88+ in order to give ourselves action; maintain balance; add deception; exploit repetative tendencies in regs etc, etc. Standard TAG is 21- 22 / 16 - 19. I run 23 / 20. And I play pretty tight. I mean I openfold A9s or less; A10o or less; KQs or less; UTG. And gradually open up to where I have a 35Vpip on the button. But this is really standard stuff.

The way you are describing FR to me is that everyone is playing ridiculously tight ranges and the money is predominantly made off cooler situations. Seems dull to me. And doesn't sound like poker. I always thought that a good players edge is defined by the amount of <40BBs pots he wins. And that he will win a much higher percentage of these than the opposition. So I dunno, I guess it's just a different game.

Why not just check the flop and turn and just put in a value bet on the river?..

Yep. Spot on. Well, not quite with the last bit. But yeah, that's pretty much standard TAG play, and obviously relies largely on making money from bad players' mistakes. Obviously it's exploitable by those who play a more open game, and I think there are more of those around than there used to be - even so you're only talking about playing maybe 16/11 or 18/12. I don't think many players at this level could get away with playing 20/16. I believe there's some guy on FT by the name of ccuuurrse who plays or played something like 28/22 and destroyed the games, but he really is the huge exception.

Whether it's not real poker - I dunno. I mean, obviously you can 3-bet other stuff, make plays and give specific players something to think about in order to gain an edge over the field. Just not as often as you can/have to at 6-max. The point of balance that you need to find so that you're not playing too predictably but also not getting too far out of line is just in a different place.

The 2 biggest winners I have 20K+ hands on are 5 PTBB/100 @ 11/7 and 6 PTBB/100 @ 12/7. They both 16+ table and are easily doing over 100K hands a month. They are obv tight and nitty but just make good decisions and don't tilt. Their 3 Bet range is usually QQ+ AK and one of them throws in 9d 8d as well. I'm 16/8 and I guess on average I'm the 3rd LAGiest player on most tables. Lot's of players with 5% PFR. My toughest opponent ATM runs 24/5. 

Many 6 max players take a stab at FR and think they can run over the nits, I did the same myself but it's more a case of playing solid and mixing it up against the regs so you're not too predictable. You can run some sick bluffs as well occasionally, I mean, I was seriously considering folding quads there for a minute :)

yes, if you live on your own play for a living and have bills to play.

but no it isnt proper poker.

LL. That's not a bad summary of many successful FR players- and a good response from Moskvich.

There is still a significant element of skill at FR- it's not just about who wins the most coolers. Although it is possible to win consistently through playing a very straight-forward "robotic" style with minimal adaption- and a lot of players do this.

However, I've no doubt at all that 6-max players see more development in their game (over a set period of time) than those playing FR. This implies that your "average" 6-max player is going to be better at poker than your "average" FR player.

In fact, over the weekend, I checked out the stats of many of the biggest winners at $1/$2 FR on Sharkscope- just to see how their SnG's results look. I was a little surprised (perhaps I shouldn't have been) that nearly all show a -ve ROI% and have lost money! I would expect that if someone who knows the biggest winners at mid-stakes 6-max checks out their stats- then they would generally be much better. (Out of interest- anyone want to do that- or give me some names to check?)**




** Thinly disguised "Look how f**king hot I run at SnGs. See I told you I'm not just an unimaginative FR'er" post. :)

Lol i think full ring cash and sng's are kind of similar in some ways. Knowing how to play as a total nit is requirement for both (early stage of sng), kind of surprising that full ring nits don't adapt to sng's well. Maybe they find all this shoving any two cards nonesense a bit scary.

I personally i have gone from sng's to 6 max cash, Im not sure i like the sound of full ring. At least in sngs you had the entertainment of it being an all in shove fest after about 20 minutes.

LOL @ using starting hand req's as an argument for forming bb/100 averages. Flops and streets is where cash players make money. Not whether you 3-bet JJ pre or you dont.

I'm not really sure what your point is there Alex, I don't think anyone's suggesting a necessarily direct correlation between PF stats and winrates...