blonde poker forum

2006 Amsterdam Master classics - Main event- 5K Euro buy in- Blinds 25/50

3rd hand of the comp, i'm dealt kings in ep, i raise to 175.

2 seats down calls.

Cut off  re-raises to 500 to play.

I re pop to 1500 to play.

2 seats down calls.

C.O. re-pops to 5k.


Question-

What do you do?

What do you do differently?

What is the correct play?

This feels like such a sick hand, what can the caller have to cold call the extra 1325 with the prospect of another raise behind?

all in

he had AK

What are the effective stacks at the start of the hand? It's very important info.

Like Flushy says, it's a pretty weird spot where there is like zero value in the raise to 1500. Just because it narrows your range down to exactly AA or KK and allows your opponents to play perfectly against you. If you guys start with 15k+ in chips then they can set mine you with any pocket pair and make no mistakes post flop. And AA can re raise to 5k and expect to get it in a lot.

Now, I'm not saying that he MUST have AA here. However, the deeper the stacks the worse he has to be to have anything other than AA, because any other hand he has at this point is now a massive bluff. And yeah, he can expect that you fold everything other than AA. But it's half your range after you make it 1500!!

If we have 10k stacks to start I'm going to go broke. If we have 15k - 20k stacks I fold. If starting stacks were 30k+ I call to flop a King. Fuck him.

Stacks where 10k, and all 3 of us where playing our 1st hand...

Oh sigh. Like I said, I probably go broke here.

Looking back, i wish i'd just called the 500. I made the mistake of re-popping again, just to confirm my fears that he did have AA,
I pretty much new anyway, i could have just called and tried to spike.

I passed, the other caller also passed. I had held onto my cards after i passed and flicked over my KK trying to get the other geezer to show.

Kindly he obliged and showed AA. The other player said he had QQ.

Its the only time i've passed KK pre flop- and probably the only level of a tournament that i could pass kk, especially as people value AK so highly.

I went on to finish 29th.... 27 paid...sigh

OK..I am not a big fessie/high buy-in player (haven't played  more than 5 tourneys over 400£ buy-in) and am therefore somewhat curious as to why the re-pop to 1500 is a bad idea? As someone said it narrows the oppo's range down to exactly AA-KK and that's pretty much what you're hoping for, no?

If you don't re-pop here and just flatcall the 500..how do you play a low flop?..Say the flop comes Q high..do you then; Lead out? check-raise? Say (even worse) the flop comes very low...7 high. is there any time where all your chips don't go flying in? after all oppo could have repopped you with QQ.

this way it's cost you 1500 but you can (fairly) safely give up the hand in the knowledge that you laid down the worst hand and have 8500 back..how much would it cost you on the flop to do the same?

Like I said, genuinely curious as to why this is and would love to hear from people that play these things regularly.

No it narrows your range to AA-KK, not your oppo's

I flat and look to check call the flop, this should scare the oppo if he has AA or QQ, thus limiting the pot but getting me to showdown.

I am not interested in losing 1500 chips, i want to try and win chips.

yeah boldie

u raise for info

u get that info..ur gut tells you to fold and u do

great disciplined pass......not many can do that

ah I read it wrong then..Thanks mate.

That's the wrong way to look at it. As I said earlier, when you make it 1500 it narrows YOUR range. And as Flushy says, we want to WIN the most amount of chips possible.

When you make it 1500 the hand becomes so much easier to play. You have told the table what you have, and you assume they act accordingly. As such, if they are competent you can fold and feel good about it when they 5 bet. And they'll fold every hand you beat preflop so you don't risk getting dogged or outplayed and win a small pot risk free.

Needless to say, when you try and make hands easier to play you drastically reduce your EV. We want to flatcall the 500 because his range for making it 500 is probably going to be JJ+ // AKo+. He may also repop with stuff like AQ and 1010 (he probably shouldn't - but what people should do and do do are very different things). When you raise, he only continues with AA most of the time. Sometimes he would be willing to get it in with QQ or AK but it is very unlikely and quite uncommon.

We WANT to play a flop against JJ or QQ or AK or 1010 or AQ. We don't want to make a play that gives them the best chance to fold preflop. Plus, we have position on the 3 bettor. So if the flop comes low we just play poker with position on the player who has shown the most strength. There will be 1500 in the pot and 9.5k behind - so we can do a lot of different things after the flop and we don't have to go broke.

Bear in mind that 5k buyin tournaments are filled with really crap players. Even many regular circuit professionals are technically awful poker players that have massively exploitable leaks. As such, we shouldn't be averse to taking a flop here.

Remember:

- Raise if better hands will fold;
- Raise if worse hands will call;

When you make it 1500, it is highly unlikely that either of the above happen (particularly the first one!!). Raising for information is always bad. But it's particularly bad in this spot. By this I mean raising to 1500 to see if he has AA would just be god awful.

Matt, hard luck on bubbling and well done on the final decision to fold. However, you should never show here. The times he doesn't show or the times he shows QQ will tilt you to such an extent that you can't continue properly. You are also giving the wrong type of image to the table.

Sigh... i hate learning.. it hurts so much :'( :'(

Thanks for the advice guys. Your making a lot of suggestions about things which are very different to my current thinking.

lol..I know what you mean..it hurts less on Blonde than in a live game where you do your chippies in though :)

We don't have position on the 3 bettor.  

I do agree broadly with the principles in the rest of your post and this is the kind of play that I would aspire to, but KK OOP vs 2 other players is a very tricky spot and sometimes due to your skill level it is better to take a line that although will only ever win a small pot, avoids losing a big one.

Your right i would still be oop, however- If i just call and i do have him on AA, i can still get away, it don't cost me any more AND
i get the opportunity to spike a set. Really i knew where i was in the hand so to re-pop was just bad play.

So you are saying that you are going to look into his soul and check fold an 882 flop?

Sorry I misread the original post as the re - raise coming from the blinds.

BTW DOUBLEUP:

We can't win a tournament without accumulating chips. We will be unable to just sit there and always take the "safety first" line; and just hope that we get dealt enough to win. I mean, we will run hot enough on occassion to get some results playing like that. But overtime we will not finish deep enough in the money to cover our buyins over a 12 month period (plus travel + accomodation + rake  :'().

As such, it's not something that we can talk of aspiring to. My post is really basic stuff that we absolutely MUST get right if we want to be winning tournament players. We need to get to the point where we are actively looking for the line that maximises our EV.

As a tournament player who plays long structure events; works a fulltime job; and travels distances to play the games I want - I sometimes have the inclination to play safe and end hands quickly - thus maximising my chances to survive. This urge is compounded by the fact that I had my breakthrough result playing like a nit and running like the sun for three days. So I understand the mentallity behind being concerned about "tournament life" and "finding out where we're at". It's a struggle to do the right thing at times. But that is all part of the discipline that is required to play winningt poker - and therefore maximise our chances to win.

So, sometimes the right decision is the big laydown when we "could" be ahead. Or it is calling and taking a flop when we "might make a mistake".

This hand is interesting because it carries two difficult decision points:

- Dealing with the 500 raise
- Dealing with the 5000 raise

To his credit Matt made a great decision on the second part. And hopefully he will gain something in relation to the first.

Good luck.

No but flushy has a point if he says "Check calling on the flop might scare him off and get you to a cheap showdown"..something to be said for that.

Also, just one final way of rationalising why calling the 500 is better:

For those who like the idea of making it 1500 for the purposes of information, consider that if you just call this 500 raise there will be 1575 in the pot going to the flop. It is reasonable to assume that the 3 - bettor has JJ+ // AKo+; and the guy in the middle 66+ // AQo+. So:

- We are 80 / 20 FTW;
- We are 20 / 80 FTW;
- We are 70 / 30 FTW;

By this I mean, we are way ahead or way behind. Therefore, this is not a spot where we need to worry about protecting our hand. Our opponents, if behind, are satistically unlikely to improve.

Now, in terms of gaining info - it is true that a re - pop to 1500 should provide us with excellent info on where we are. In that it is logical to assume that a re - raise from him is AA 90% of the time. KK, QQ, AK the rest. So you might say that making it 1500 either wins you a small pot or allows you to confidently fold and avoid losing a potentially big pot.

But wait!!

Lets say we call the 500 and we decide that we are going to check / call one bet on EVERY single flop. That bet into a 1500 pot is generally going to be 800 - 1300 chips. So assuming it goes check, check, bet - you can call and peel a turncard for a price similiar to what you were willing to expend preflop.

Obviously, it may go check, bet, raise - in which case it would be bad to call oop for a turn. However, in that scenario we can probably be as sure we are beat as we would be to a 5 - bet preflop.

What is my point?

My point is that, whereas you may think that making iot 1500 is the easiest way to find out "where we are" in the hand. By calling the 500, we are simply delaying the decision point where we make the decision on what to do. But for a similair cost in terms of chips, we get to see three or four cards. We can always spike a King by then - but we would have to conclude that our information should be much more complete after peeling four cards than it is preflop.

And, bear in mind that the 3 - bettor may bet a lot of flops and check back a lot of turns for pot control even when he has AA.

It just seems to me that there is absolutely no good reason to make it 1500 chips to go preflop. It is much, much more efficient for us to get that extra 1000 or so chips in later in the hand.

Boldie, I was typing while you posted - so my last post expands on that idea a little also.

LLoyd you really are underestmating the skill required here not to make a big mistake post-flop either by folding incorrectly or not folding incorrectly.  I have seen well regarded players taking early baths in this spot.  I've also seen well regarded players taking Matts line and getting away from the hand.  I don't think that anyone is giving up much to the field by playing this situation in a risk averse manner.

thanks for that mate..

I'm not saying that won't happen - but I think you are underestimating just how big of a mistake 4 - betting to 1500 preflop is.

My re-take on this (with the wonderful power of hindsight as influence) is-

I smooth call the 500, and i suspect the other caller calls (looking for a q or a flop without an ace).

The flop gives me a problem as it most likely comes down without any paint, as first to act i may well check raise this flop- this would cost me more than the 1500 total outlay. However i may spike. Either way, unless the flop comes Ace high, i doubt very much i get away without losing more chips.

Post flop action highly hyperthetical of course.

I dont think my play was awful by any stretch, i also had a physical read on this guy and he looked like he had aces lol.

Like you lloyd i have had a good few results and most of my best results where in a period of naievty (fearless ignorance).

My style has evolved through good and bad periods over the last 3 years and i'm probably a better player now than then- however, i am leaving chips behind and missing value- this is shown in my mid tournament game where i'm running low and so i need good advice on chip accumulation and not missing spots.

I also agree that the law of averages plays a strong part in your and flushies game and folding KK pre flop is a -ev long term. However if short term, i can avoid the AA v KK, then my long term ev is surely even better.

Finally- showing hands- its generally foolish imo, and not something i do a lot (there is occasion it is helpful). This was an occasion where i just needed to know and although the rest of the table gained info on me, after he showed me his Aces, i played the comp like a freeroll, and ironically got knocked when my JJ ran into Aces, AIPF 2 off the dough.

I'm still learning and looking to be a better player, all advice is appreciated and the different views on how to play this hand in this situation is very enlightening.

Cheers guys

 There is no rational argument you can give me as to why re-raising to 1500 preflop is a TERRIBLY BAD idea with KK in this spot. It definitely does not allow your oppo's to play perfectly against you postflop unless they are good enough to make you fold winning hands. It aint terribly likely someone is gonna bluff for stacks early on here. Ok, so your range has been narrowed, but thats not the end of the world when we are getting 15% of our stack in pre.

Allowing AA to play perfectly against you should be secondary thought process no?.  People say this allows opponent to set mine you perfectly postflop- who gives a fuck, you gave them incorrect effective implied odds preflop. Im not giving 7.5/1 im gonna use a min of 10/1 as you have to hit a set AND get oppo's stack.

 As played Matt doesnt go broke, if he flats then he is gonna lose a whole heap more postflop. Defining your hand can be very wrong in some instances, but i dont think its terrible here. This is the 1st hand of the tournament.

Not only that we see more cards we are also calling the flop bet against a wider range than KK+ so we see more cards and get more money in ahead!


It's almost certain that your oppo will check the turn behind if he bets the flop here as a smooth call from you looks so much like a set its unreal. My line would be check call the ~1k bet, check the turn and fire 1k on the river, if he happens to bet the turn then i am letting it go.

Re-raising to 1500 is not tragic, it does make the hand a lot easier to play, but it also loses us a lot of value.

Oh and obviously showing is very bad, it invites people to walk all over you. Like those people who when facing a button raise at the end of a tournament show an Ace in the BB and pass, it's like a big neon sign saying "please steal my blinds all night long"

I've given you two rational arguments. Also, as Flushy and I are trying to make clear - if we call the 500 and take a passive check / call line postflop we are unlikely to lose "a whole heap more" than a 1000 extra chips you wish to put in. And we may, of course win more chips from weaker hands than 1000. Something which can rarely happen when you make it 1500 pre.

Oh, and btw - the fact that it is the first hand or the one thousand and first hand never changes the fact that we should strive for the "correct" play.

I think what Alex means is that on the first hand we are going to get crazy bluffed here about 0.1% of the time, as such we will never be misinformed when we make it 1500 to go, as such any 'information' we get back is easy to work out. I am not advocating the line of 1500, i am just pointing out why the first hand makes this play a bit better than say the 30th.

I deffo agree that most of the time we should be making our lines a lot more clouded in order to get worse hands to call and better hands to fold etc. But this is the 1st hand of the tournament. We have zero info on how oppo's are playing today. This makes it hard for us to play our hand effectively oop down the streets.

Later on with some background info i prefer a less conventional line. But there is a great chance we can increase our stack by 10% 1st hand relatively risk free and then take our time to evaluate the table. Unless we have some built in Ungar-esque talent we can lose a lot with a  big PP oop against unknown quantities on wide open ranges. I love poker.

Very good discussion.

The 1,500 re-raise is going to magnify our strength for sure....because it's the first hand of a big tournament. But we can also use that situation to magnify the original bet-raise-call (with original bettor behind) action and conclude that there is strength at the table. We could raise to be absolutely certain about that but it seems clear enough. So I am inclined to agree with the call line here...using the 1,500 pre-flop tells us something we already know whereas there could be better uses for that money later. I think this is pretty much the point Lloyd makes and it's a good one. Also at this stage in the comp I'm going to be much happier pumping chips in with better than one pair and calling gives you the chance to explore this. Later in the comp I'm probably pushing.

Having said that your post flop decisions are going to be so tough. By re-raising your pre-flop decision was more simple but a good one none the less. I think if you do decide to call it would be on the basis that you are not in love with the hand.