blonde poker forum

Playing a $1,500 buyin preliminary event at the Cesars Classic in Oct of 2007....250 or so runners.....1st prize is $120K + a $10K seat to main event......

-Down to 19 players (25 was the $$$ I think)
-3 tables of 7,7,6
- Just moved to this table about 30 minutes prior....played 1 hand  Th Ts vs Miami John's  Aspades Kh....my  Td Th holds and I am just above average at 43K

Blinds 800/1600 w/ 200.....and the following hand takes place!

-It is folded 2 me in the SB, I look down and find  Jd Jh....................................I have 43K ave is 38K or so...we are in the money.....

-BB was on 65K but he has lost a few hands since I got moved to the table...he now has 35K....not tilty but not real happy about what is going on......

How would u play  Jd Js in this situation, remember it is 6 handed, table is playing fairly tight, your image is tight although u just moved 2 the table in the last 30 minutes....I will post whatI did after some comments....

i am quite happy to take the blinds and ante just push in he might call with a raggy ace then your getting even money as a 1-2 on shot

he might call with a small pai and your getting even better shot

very rarely would you be in bad shape

you might just get the blinds and i would be happy with that

you want to push for 50xBB?

you're only being called by AA, KK or if you're very, very lucky AK

I like the limp re-raise here.
if he checks I'm quite happy to play JJ HU post flop, even OOP

Good point.....But......this player could make a mistake.... He has folded 3 hands when he has been bet off them...... and lost 30K (almost half) his stack since I got to the table 30 minutes ago....... 

SO...u want to gain no info...u want to let him play any 2 against u??? When do u get off the hand when the flop comes  2s 5h Tc...after u put anothe 5-10K of your average stack of 43K into the pot????

sorry Brian, had a bit of a funny turn there. for some reason I thought you'd written that the table was playing loose (hence favouring the check raise) when you in fact wrote the exact opposite.
on a tight table I'm putting in a standard 3xBB raise.

you may only have an average stack but it's still fairly deep. you've got a premium hand 6 handed, why would you even consider pushing here?
if he's being bet off of hands then surely he's less likely to call off his whole stack here with nothing. different situation if 3 hands recently he's called big bets with air, then the push gains some merit

If I remember right the BB was check raised off 1 hand....reraised off 1on the turn..... and..... HE check called all the way on the 3rd hand w/ middle pair ......

You have average chips in a short-handed format. You need lots more chips to win and the ones you do have wont last forever. You really don't want to be playing this hand scared. You would only push here if you felt there was a fair chance the bb would call with a worse hand....and a 43k bet makes that an unlikely prospect.

Just play the hand the best way you think will get the bb to make a mistake. Personally I would just put in a standard raise and hope he re-raises with A-10 or similar. It's 6 handed so starting requirements come down and aggression levels go up. Your raise with Jacks will look like A-4 and it will hopefully provoke an already battered bb to take a stand.

OK..I agree w/ letting him make a mistake....what if he has AK...AQ....and he reraises when u make it 5K to go...or if he just is sick of being abused....if he reraises what do u do????
If he has  Kc Qh....he will call.... Qh Jc...call....then the flop is  Qd 2h 7s....do u lead...????? How do u bet enough to commit him to a good hand w/ out wasting a chance to get more chips??? What flop r u looking for if u make a standard raise and he just calls......

Raise to 4.5 and call a shove/3bet all in.

If flat called and a Q hi flop then weak lead.

Raise to whatever your normal amount is. If he re-raises push with a fist pump
Get it in on most flops.

Raise normal amount pre, call a shove, shove over a raise. Him flat calling is nice 2. Happy to take flops v him because of stack sizes and tonnes of info you must have on him.

you open shove 50bb but its really only 30bb

i am qute happy with whats in the pot i really dont want to be messing around with a near tilted bb when there is nearly4k in the pot ready to be added to your stack

i really dont want to be raising to see him pushing with KQ (or 2 over cards) that he would of folded if you had pushed there is no reason to get into a coin flip with him for over half your stack

I'm the opposite, i want him to shove with KQ.
You are basically saying you are scared to play against him, may aswell fold incase he calls your allin....................

You should be delighted to take a coinflip for your stack at this point. If he shoved in and showed you AK / KQ / AQ you should scorch the felt making the call.

You dont think you can find better matchups/ use mahusive fold equity at all here rather than flip?

There are 19 players left in a tournament. You have a 50BB stack. Overestimating your edge here is a huge mistake that most players make. If you get offered the chance to get it in 55 / 45 for a 70k pot you should be delighted. It's a plus cEV spot which equals plus $EV. Very easy to go card dead; get coolered; get outdrawn; make a small mistake etc, etc. In tournaments, you should just keep taking flips and any spots with an edge until you are on a pay or sat bubble where cEV no longer equals $EV and other considerations come into play.

OK.....I like all the comments...there really is no 1 way to play this hand...it looks like a standars hand but I feel it is very important based on the # of players left...you can tell who wants to win a comp and who wants to make a final table by the way they would play this hand........I like Flushy's play because u only spend about 10K...but, I just hate to "waste" 25% of my chips this way ( I know its not a waste, just seems like it).......

What did I do.....U guessed it........


Now...what do u expect from the BB w/ the following hands (I will assume aa and kk are going to insta call)

1) AK
2) AQ
3) AJ
4) QQ (I know, insta call)
5) TT
6) weak ace or a pair smaller that TT

I will update the result later.........

Iron i am confused, at what point do you want to play a hand blind on blind?

All you do by shoving is remove his chance to bluff, all the massive hands still call, some of the hands you still beat call that would re-raise anyway, but all the Ax that shovel it in over your raise now pass.

I don't spend 10k, i get my stack in.


AK call, AQ call, QQ call, TT call.

Weaker A pass, 99 call 88/77 maybe rest pass.

This is what I was talking about...if u r called.......

I am not passing :D

Here is why I pushed...........

1) I want the guy to be frustrated...make a mistake  w/ a weak  Aspades or smaller pair
2) Its a comp...I must get top 3 or its a waste of time
3) If he wakes up w/  Qd Qh/ Kd Kc/ Ahrt Aspades...so be it...I will not play scared
4) If he is sat on 65K and had not lost the last 3 hands he played I just make a standard raise...fold to a reraise...lead a flop and play very carefull
5) If I win the hand I will make the final table and i rate my chances very good to win it
6) We are 6 handed
7) If I cant pick up chips here where am I going do it....when we are back at a full table??
8) I am also VERY happy w/ the 4K in the pot.....I will play a lot of pots 6 handed and I dont mind picking up easy pots
9) The table is now going to think I will push any pair...after I show the  Jd Jh and this will help later.....( I pushed  Tc Td when I got to the table to double up)

You'd pass JJ to a reraise blind on blind?

What's the reasoning behind that?

Honestly wsopin07 you aren't happy with the 4k in this pot. It would be like jumping into a Ferrari and being happy tootling at 30mph. You are 6-handed, you have the 4th best starting hand in poker, you are blind on blind, and you are up against a potentially tilting oppo. You will HAVE to use your chips sooner or later and a situation better than this will almost certainly not arrive before you get blinded away....so you are not happy taking the blinds here. The bb could have AK or AQ or any other inferior hand to yours, so what? We can't worry about the ways we could loose this hand before we even begin. We need to look at ways to maximise this opportunity....and pushing isn't it (particularly because you have a tight image).

A standard raise from you gives the bb the chance to make a mistake with the hands you mention by pushing. By pushing yourself you take this possibilty away and that in itself is a mistake. When you say you are happy to take the 4k what you really mean is that you are happy to avoid conflict with a powerful hand. And that is something you need to look at that.

if we put his range to call a push at AK, AQ, 99+ then this is as close to a coinflip as we can get. if he's any tighter than that then we're in real trouble to a call

now if we put in a standard raise pre-flop we can maybe look at a calling range of 66+, any ace, any broadway.

now even with a flop of  Qd  2h  7s (your choice of scare flop Brian) we have 68% equity. the only hand that now bothers us more than before is 77 which we've let in (AA, KK, QQ and AQ were calling us anyway if we pushed, at least now we've got a chance for them not to felt us).

We've also given oppo a great chance to make a big mistake against us which they may well do with AK, A2, 99 etc.

For me...if I am going to play it like a puss...I have 2 fold to a reraise....thats why I dont want to play it the "standard " way 

Its not a scare flop...its a good flop...unless u r up against AQ of KQ...and a standard raise allows the BB to play these hands.......Is AQ really calling a push here???...is AJ then a possiblity???

Point taken....sometimes u just get a feeling and go w/ it....so let me ask u this....in this situation would u rather have  Jd Jh or  Aspades Kh

At this point in the comp I like to play hands very different than most people would....I want to make my decisions and go w/ them...thats a lot of pressure to put on the BB and I think he is likely to make a mistake given the last 30 minutes of play.....

I would rather the JJ.



I am not passing JJ here pre, ever. I don't understand why you want to pass it?

I dont...thats why I pushed....if I get reraised...and I call off my stack....not feeling so good about it if he has something like  Aspades Qs or  Kc Qc...I am going to feel like I made him play the hand....if he calls my allin he made the mistake if I lose....

I dont like this purely because you are restricting the liklihood of them making a mistake, and forcing them to make a mistake based on the cards they have been dealt... whereas if you make a non-allin raise, you let them make a mistake based on the dynamics of the hand (ie, they can ship it in with 9/10s thinkin you are stealing)

Removing peoples illusion of fold-equity removes a lot of hands that they will play in this spot, and you dont want to tighten their range up given the spot you are in at the mo, you want it as wide as possible.

 :goodpost:

God only knows I am an advocate of alternative thought, but on this occasion I am failing to see any positives in pushing. No matter how you dress-up the all-in it is always going to be a massive 43k bet. Whether the bb thinks you're at it or not is irrelevant when you push...because he wont be able to call. He might want to call with A-9 but he wont...like you say it's a lot of pressure. People are itching to stack it over the top of rasises in these sorts of situations, especially if they've lost a few pots. They do not want to call all-in with marginal hands.



Any hand that would call this bet will re-raise you pre-flop so the chips would go in anyway. Doing this takes all the play away from the bb and this doesn't take advantage of the situation or the strength of your hand.

Wow I really dislike a push a lot here and well completely agree with mantis :o

 :goodpost:...I have 2 say...i agree w/ this.....I guess I was trying to create a situation that was already created for me.........does that make sense???

flushy at this stage of a comp i dont wanted to be playing out of the sb

obviously with a big hand i dont want to pass it eitehr so i would just get the chips in the middle

at try and get those valueable dead chips

obviously if i do it often enough the BB is going to defend with alot less than premium hands like A9 and 88 become fight back hands  and i much prefer that to putting in a standard raise getting called and finding myself out of postion on a board with an over card on it

Why? It's hard to get outplayed when you have a premium

maybe i just not experianced enough yet out of the sb

i do find that pushing alot from the sb gets me plenty of action from non-believers in the bb with smaller hands

Hi  Brian,

Hows things mate?

With 7(?) on the table there is 3800 in before any action, so your 43k is roughly 11 M. I am making it about 7k to play here coz I have enough chips not to have to push in. The 7k can a) win you the pot there b) Give him a chance to re raise as this is gonna look like a great spot to him to move in for his 35k as most of the time you wont have a hand you can call with. c) He may call with a hand he likes and you can play the flop but in his spot I think calling is a bad play(unless he does have a big hand, then he's gonna let you potentially hang yourself on the flop) , he needs to make you decide if you wanna play by moving in, if not he should pass. If he does re raise then Im calling for sure at this stage of the comp.

By pushing in you are making him fold a bad hand and a half decent hand, by raising to around 7k you give him the option to re raise you with his bad hand or his half decent hand giving you a good chance to get em all in in a good spot. If he has AK AQ or  a pair bigger than you and you lose then its just one of those hands.

With AK, AQ, AJ QQ and TT I am calling for sure as a big % of the time your hand is weaker than this in this spot. A weak Ace I am Folding but if you had made it 7k a weak Ace might be enough for me to  move in as your play looks like a typical sb raise to take the blinds. A pair smaller than TT I think I am passing and 77 and below I deffo pass, I am not calling away my chips.

OK....so the basic feeling is I played this hand like a dork.....here is another hand from the $100 rebuy on stars the other night......what do u do w/ the  Kc Qc in this spot....the last 2 tables has been crazy...this is the 2nd hand of the final table.....1st prise $17K...9th is $1,200....I played the tightest tournament i had ever played .....I always had a hand at showdown....I was chipleader at the end of the rebuy w/ only $200 invested.....

I cant tell u much about the SB...we had just made the final table....I can tell u there was very aggressive play the last 30 minutes or so.....I have 59K in the BB...blinds 2K/4K  w/400

 PokerStars Game #14307902796: Tournament #71862573, $100+$9 Hold'em No Limit -
Level XVI (2000/4000) - 2008/01/04 - 00:14:43 (ET)
Table '71862573 13' 9-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: TNplayer123 (158884 in chips)
Seat 2: jusgivithere (196927 in chips)
Seat 3: mman_status (42580 in chips)
Seat 4: MrCasino (141000 in chips)
Seat 5: Bjorg009 (215272 in chips)
Seat 6: vietcong01 (91869 in chips)
Seat 7: slimshaggy (181150 in chips)
Seat 8: flopit20 (59844 in chips)
Seat 9: TheMiltMan (95474 in chips)
TNplayer123: posts the ante 400
jusgivithere: posts the ante 400
mman_status: posts the ante 400
MrCasino: posts the ante 400
Bjorg009: posts the ante 400
vietcong01: posts the ante 400
slimshaggy: posts the ante 400
flopit20: posts the ante 400
TheMiltMan: posts the ante 400
slimshaggy: posts small blind 2000
flopit20: posts big blind 4000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to flopit20 [Kc Qc]
TheMiltMan: folds
TNplayer123: folds
jusgivithere: folds
mman_status: folds
MrCasino: folds
Bjorg009: folds
vietcong01: folds
slimshaggy: raises 176750 to 180750 and is all-in
flopit20: calls 55444 and is all-in

What do u do here....are u deep enough to fold all the time....is this a spot to get some chips so u have a chance to win the comp?????

You are quite short, nothing wrong with calling here.