blonde poker forum

Most Cash Games in which I sit permit Live Straddles. I am, relatively, a newbie to regular Cash Games.

It's, say, £3-£3, & there is a straddle almost every time to £6, sometimes then to £12.

I never Straddle, & when I'm in the "straddle position" & refuse to Straddle, I get grief from the Table.

My reasoning?

1) I don't really understand the point of Straddling. If I want to pay for higher Blinds, I can sit at a bigger table.

2) Surely all it's doing is increasing the "gamble factor" & Pot-Building.

Is there a good reason why I should join the "Straddle Club"?

PS - I note that DTD refuse to allow Straddles, on the basis that it forces less well-funded players out of pots.

i straddle early doors to get the money moving,just to create a game i like.

I have no problem with the single live straddle from UTG. The advantage is to act last preflop.

In Texas say you've got a reputation as a gambler or just plain aggressive the advantages are huge. Most players with semi-strong hands will call and wait to call or reraise if the UTG straddler is known to pop the pot up when given the option.

The pay offs for UTG player when he has a monster pre-flop are huge.
Most other players will call preflop believing UTG is just being aggressive. In PL games it enables UTG straddler to raise to maximum value preflop which under normal play would only be 3.5x BB. If another player with a medium pair tries to isolate the straddler with a reraise they could lose all their chips thinking they are going heads up against a gambler when really they are a 4 to 1 dog.

If UTG player only has a small pair or suited connector, the straddle means they can usually see a flop cheap against a big hand that has elected to wait for the straddler to raise. So the straddler can play these hand that usually should be played in late postion and may flop a hand which a slow played big hand may not be able to get away from.

This advantage is so minor that it's simply not worth straddling for that reason. What percentage of times do the straddlers actually raise pre-flop? Even if they do, they are likely to be out of position come the flop. The only genuine benefit I can see is to remove the other players from their comfort zone.

I like to use it later on in a cash game, when there's generally a bit more money on the table, and often less players.

To stack someone when they're deep is tough. They normally won't put all that money in the pot without a nut or near nut hand.
In order to make getting that money easier, it's a good idea to think about building pots pre-flop and loosening up your image.

Straddling can go a long way to achieving both these ends, and when there is a decent amount of money on the right table, the implied odds can make even the double straddle a good bet.

It can not only push people out of their comfort zone, it can push them out of the game. No fear, these are the people who you don't really want in there. You've spent hours cultivating a gambling atmosphere and are ready to relieve a couple of deep stacked and tired fish of all their money. You don't want the rock listning to his i-pod all night taking home the spoils of your labour. You want him pushed out of every pot. 


Furthermore, I'd advise the OP that while it's never a good idea to be bullied into doing something that you don't want to do, if you are getting grief from the table for not straddling, they have taken notice of your unwillingness to gamble and it is perhaps symptomatic of an overly tight table image. It might be worthwhile considering what else you can do to offset this.

You mention that you can just play a bigger game if you want bigger blinds. The reverse might also be true. When the straddling starts, play in a game where there are smaller blinds so you're back in your comfort zone and better able to take your share of all that free money that is flying around the table.

I'm pretty sure that in a holdem game, simply by not straddling when everyone else is and having tight image (you would want the blind bets to fold to your raises) would guarantee a win.

Im a fan of straddles

i see them as an investment into future pots   ok most of the time you wont have a monster in the straddle but you will cause others to play differently in the hand because of your staddle.  They may even slowplay a monster waiting for your raise  or they may raise because of the straddle and others play the hand differently against them.  It can also mean players win bigger pots putting the player who loses the pot on tilt which can affect later pots

My question was "loaded", and I want to await more feedback before commenting too much, but I could not disagree more with your summing up Mr Tank The Dad Sir, & you have missed the point.

It's got nothing to do with "comfort-zone", it's got to do with + & - EV.

I am always happy to share a table with the blind-straddlers, it gives me a huge edge, because straddling is -EV. It is a mathematical & prove-able fact.

I was just hoping someone could come up with a logical, sensible, reason as to why they have been led to believe straddling is a good thing - for the straddlers. It's clearly a good thing for the non-straddlers, like me.

Marcel (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=642) Luske (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=642) started the trend - now the fashion for all the wannabees - of "checking in the dark". But Marcel understands why he does it, the wannabes don't.

The Emporor's suit of clothes springs to mind.

PS - my "overly tight table image". In Tourneys, yes, I'm Lord Rock, & happily so, & that's how I can make profits in Tourneys. But in Cash-Games - well, ask anyone who's played me in Cash, & I'm exactly the opposite. I am, in fact, Lord Loose Goose. But Straddle bcause they all give me grief? You jest. I'm made of sterner stuff, & I'm happy to chuckle away to myself at their antics. Remember, in poker, the value of doing the opposite to what is expected is huge.

I'm looking forward to the views on this subject of the Cash-Game Experts, & especially Totalise, Cat & Longy. Oh, & the Flushster.

I see all that Jim, but look at it differently. Imagine, say - the difference between CALLING & RAISING. Massive & fundamental, yes? Add to that, it's my nature never to be "forced" into playing pots on the terms of others - I play pots on my terms. It's the same with Straddles - nobody can take me where I don't wanna go, on terms disadvantageous to me. I'll do it when, & if it suits me, not when fashion or peer pressure suggests I should.

Lead, don't follow. By straddling, all I'm doing is giving eveyone else an edge.

It's my money, & it goes in the pot on my terms.

I sat in a game a while back, £4-£4, & it went (Straddle) £8, £16, £32, £64, £128. And these guys thought they could play! But they did have very big dicks.

I agree with what your saying and thats a good reason for you not to straddle yourself

straddling for me like most things in poker is about timing  doing it when the right players are in the right positions and in the right state of tilt.

For example if its Anthonys button and he chooses 4 card omaha there is a good chance that i will straddle. 9/10 he will raise 15 on his button if no1 has raised in front of him but by me straddling it affects his control on the button  ( i know the question is mainly set out for holdem games)

Also ask yourself how you play a pot differently if you pick up a monster when someone else has made a straddle. Do you slow play it waiting for a raise and sometimes trap yourself. Other times you might over raise with it as you dont want too many callers as they may come in for value if they have already called a straddle  not always easy to get rid of the calling stations if they have already called a straddle

I agree with all the above, most of the gamblers that play poker see this as the way to create big pots as they want to fill the gamble needs and not neceserily play good poker.

All it does is create pots that people then fall over themselves to win, the standard of the game goes down and as you say all that happens is you are playing bingo most of the time.

Can be good for us cash game rockys tho if we do ever find a big hand(2004 was the last time, it was a Wednesday I think)

Spot on Phil. When those eejits were quadruple straddling to £64 & £128, that's not poker, thats Bingo, & fair play to dt (http://www.dtdpoker.com/aff/BlonditesDownload)d (http://www.dtdpoker.com/aff/BlonditesDownload) for refusing to allow it - because it's a poker club, not a Bingo Hall.

I still think its a bit short sighted of DTD to just ban straddles, why not have certain tables that allow straddles?

There is also a difference between allowing utg to straddle  and allowing it to continue being live from every position  there onwards.

On a slightly different subject the Rio during the WSOP allows a Mississippi straddle which allows the player on the button to straddle and the action starts preflop from the sb this is such a huge advantage to the button with having position its hard not to straddle everytime when on the button

On the "Live at the Bike" Broadcasts, Dave Tuchman used to say that he thought that Straddles were only +EV when the table was short handed (5 or less) and then with quite lose players as it gave you the oportunity to re-raise them off of the pot pre flop. Anyother situations, he could see no value in it whatsoever.

I think thats what he said anyway.

Because they wish to encourage good poker.

doing straddles are almost always -ev, I guess one time it could be acceptable mathematically would be if you were utg with 2BB left in your stack and it was a loose table, then you could get 4/1 or 5/1 on your money on a random hand, but generally the value of the straddle is one for enjoyment

Heres a Q for you, do you find that they fold more to you when you refuse to straddle? it does create an illusion of being very tight, which I guess could be exploited pretty nicely!

I dont agree for poker places to ban straddles though, and the reason of wanting to encourage "poker",  is poker, poker is gambling for most poeple, what next, ban people from going allin preflop?

poker isnt always about  the maths and ev+ and ev-

you can do things to set up plays for hands later on in the session

i have seen players such as daniel N  make calls on the river knowing he has lost the hand so that it affects plays later on

i agree that most of the time straddling is ev- but with a little bit of timing it can be a handy weapon in the arsenal

Yup! I guess both sides of the argument think they have the best of it. I'm happy enough with that.

But I'm glad you've nailed the old wives tale as to Straddles - they are  - except in special cases, -EV.

Likewise, if the eejits wanna have a pissing contest with Straddles, I'll lie in wait & take them on as & when it suits me.

Tikay would you feel different about straddles if they were restricted to utg only

they are aren't they. anything else is just a blind raise. or is there anywhere where superstraddles are live?

In most cash games the straddle can continue around the table as far as the button each bet is double the one before all bets are live   

On the whole, my view would remain the same.

But I like your take - use it in special circumstance, dynamically, according to the texture of the table. That's fine & dandy, but most straddlers do it for a different reason - which I doubt they understand, other than they prefer "gambling" blind to playing, &, of course, they love to show just how huge, & small, respectively,  their dicks & brains are.

I'm very happy for someone to pay £64 for the privelige of not seeing their hole cards while I look at mine for free.

STTs at DTD have 7 minute blinds because they wish to encourage good poker?

As ever, Red hits the nail on the head!

i agree multi straddles are a complete lottery  but i maintain this is an art to using an utg straddle

I am not just expressing a view here, I'm stating what DTD said, here on blonde. I happen to agree. Simon Trumper made the statement, saying he did not wish to see players disadvantaged by Straddles.

The 7 minute Blinds in the STT's - I happen to be with you on that, but again, DTD stated their (temporary) reasons for doing this, to try & cater for the demand until they have enough Dealeres on board. Which will be quite soon, I gather.

Funnily enough, i very rarely straddle (i dont mind other people straddling for the same reasons as you) but i just find it strange having a blanket rule of no straddles.

Everything is about EV of course, but sometimes pushing otherwise good players into playing a game they don't want to, (or forcing them out of playing the sort of game they do want to) can affect your EV to the good.



Consider this....

3 other players with me at the table
Blinds are £1/£1

- A young guy, probably a better player than me. Certainly capable of making better reads. Although I know he is currently shortrolled due to leaks.

- A foreign chap, extremely passive calling station and sitting on a monster stack having gotten rather fortunate. He is having fun, independantly wealthy, but that stack at least will be gone by the end of the night.

- A mad guy doing his bollox, spunking buy-in after buy-in trying to build a stack and get out of a hole. He is straddling every hand, and encouraging the obedient foreign chap to do the same.


I know there's a huge probability the money is going to either me or the young guy (or both) by the time the sun comes up.

I choose to straddle, as a result double straddles are possible to my left.
The amount of money in the pot pre-flop before cards are dealt has increased by an average 67% from what it would be if I didn't straddle, the amount of actual money it takes to see a flop increases by a whole lot more than that.

The young guy has £300 left, and ideally wants to see flops for under £5 not over £20. It only costs him £2 a round, so he decides to wait for his moment and a big pair rather than risk a significant portion of his bankroll with a narrower edge.

Looking at the young guys game, as the only player in the game not straddling, of course he is +EV to wait for Kings. He can sit back and listen to his i-pod and make a profit, good for him. However, he would be massively more +EV in a game where he can afford to see flops and value bet his way through the foreigners £1,500 stack quickly and efficiently.

As poker is a zero sum game, his loss is indirectly (but not too indirectly) my gain. I can play pots that, although large with smaller edge per hand, are very numerous and against two predicatable players.
The free money from the foreigner is only available for a very limited time, Once his massive stack inevitably dissapears, the game will likely break up.

A rather specific situation, but I'm just making the point that a policy of never straddling can be as silly as a policy of always straddling.
I will concede that straddling is typically a -EV play though.

I buy that. But it's only in the most specific & special circumstances that I will ever straddle, "if the cap fits". Mostly, I'm happy to let the loons do their thing. I'll call Straddles, Raise them, but I won't (generally) do them myself. As I said at the start, I don't see the point. And neither, imo, do most of those that Straddle, but they've seen others do it, & think it's the thing to do - or they just wanna play Bingo. And, of course, prove how much money they are prepared to lose by, in effect, betting Blind. I can outplay most who Raise it up Blind......

Consider this, You straddle all night and win a small fortune. As you are leaving the card room, a small meteorite manages to penetrate the earth's atmosphere directly above you. By some miracle you are not killed, but the heat sets fire to your wallet......

I have to agree with  Jim 77Dave here. Straddles help to show the table you are prepared to gamble and shorthanded can be used to make moves from loose LP raisers.

I don't play alot of live cash truth be told. I don't straddle when I do play, I really don't get why you would want to generally. You are in effect putting another blind in, so we have a situation where we have sb,bb and even bigger big blind. If you sat down in a game and you could choose any position you wanted, you aren't going to choose the big blind are you, but by putting the straddle on thats what you are doing once every orbit.

It does change your image but as with every image in poker you can exploit it to your advantage and do so without having to give away a ton equity every orbit. I accept there are special circumstances but as Tikay it seems to be a dick waving contest to me.

I prefer not to straddle when i play cash. Usually im sat with around £100 when some are sat with as much as £300 (not all)

Its a bit of a cray game and the straddle can sometimes reach as high as £8 and £16, and this is a £1/£1 game. Im more than happy for others to do this, as when i get my Queens, Kings & Aces, the AK, maybe even Jacks or AQ, its + ev for me, as theyll nearly always fold round to the straddler who will look a bit embarrassed and fold anyway.

Last week i got it all in with Kings v Ace 4 for a £300+ pot. I lost, as i flop bad with Kings v Ace x, but thats not the point.

No-one abuses me for not straddling but thats probs as its a very friendly game and theyre are a couple of others who dont.

I definetly prefer to adobt a very tight image and in a loose 9-10 handed game where the pots are raked for table fees, i think its a pretty easy way of making a profit a lot of the time.

There is a BIG difference between the UTG straddle (which only doubles the BB and which can be used to your advantage when you make them) and the double,triple,quadruple idiot straddles TK seems to mainly be talking about.

Creating action for a round or two is not a bad thing..Tank is right that when everybody is sitting very deep it's hard to get the entire stack in the middle and "building the pot a bit" can help you get peoples entire stack (or for you to lose yours obviously).

the ones where the "straddle" goes through 3/4 or even 5 people is simply a joke for gamblers

I've only read the thread up to the above post but Christ Tikay, stop!! The most excellent and obvious reason for a club to disallow straddling is for the same reasons that UK and Irish clubs will generally spread a pot limit game first - people will go broke slower and pay rake for longer.

Much as voluntarily straddling is definitely -EV for players (why do you want to put more money into a pot blind and oop?); it is astoundingly -EV for cardclubs. Plus consider that people who like to straddle will still play if the club prohibits it. The dude who likes a friendly game and doesn't play to be pushed around or bullied may not return.

Any club may pay lipservice about good poker - but saying no to straddles is an excellent business decision first and foremost.

Also, for all those who say straddling is a good thing please consider that:

- Playing out of position is bad;
- Applying a straddle doubles the blinds and halves the effective stacks;

Why is halving the effective stack depth beneficial to you if you have a perceived skill edge? You may take people out of their financial comfort zone to some extent (but consider that they put the money in front of them in play and you can't change the total that is at risk). But you are also cutting the difficulty of their later street decisions in half because there is less money left to go in on the later streets. The less total blinds in play on a table the greater the effect of luck on the outcome of a session.

But thats just it with straddling - and Tikay is probably spot on. People who do it and demand it of others at a table are the same type of people who overestimate their edge and fail to notice when they have actually become the value at a table. By the sounds of it, players who straddle and defend the straddle generally believe themselves to be better than the opposition. But even if that is true, an insistence on playing big pots oop on a consistent basis and lowering the average stack to pot ratio for the entire table is a great way to level the playing field and give your supposed inferior opponents a helping hand.

But then conquering your ego and honestly assessing your abillity is something most players will never achieve. And misunderstanding what poker is fundamentally about and how to identify and capitalise on +EV spots is what sperates winners from losers in the longterm.

I will rarely straddle - and make a particular point of not doing so when the rest of the table is. Sure, it shows them that I'm not there to gamble. But its true, I'm there to win. And if the rest of the table is playing big pot poker and voluntarily juicing it up oop then there is no reason to fear. You'll be paid off by someone when the time comes.

LIVE CASH LOL.

I play in casinos/private games in the North West where a live straddle is allowed from any position.  I mostly play dealers choice where in the flop games (omaha/O8) the late postion straddle can definately be a +EV play.

In these games a strong hand will not raise from early position as much as in hold em as no hands are as big a favourite then big pairs are in texas.

I'm presuming, in Luton and other casinos, only the UTG has 1st option to straddle and so on. I take it you don't allow the late position or button straddle that i'm used to?

If i perceive my edge to be big, which it is in most of the live cash games i play (not being conceited i just like to play against loose idiots), i am more than happy to take on the responsibility of turning a cautious/tight game into a bet fest by making lots of pre flop raises and straddles and double straddles for as long as i think it is required to get a game going that i know i am very likely to be a big winner in. I have done this numerous times and can say for certain it has been very +EV for me in long term.

I don't do it in £200+ games as the players are generally less likely to be stackable and people also cut and run. In £25/£50/£100 games the money won from a big pot is rarely so much that a player will become ultra defensive or leg it.

I've never managed to think of any other reason why i would possibly want to straddle.



never heard of that and it sounds insane and completely pointless.

Really? Just in Liverpool then?

I've never heard of it either. please explain how a button straddle works.

Playing Dealers choice 1/2 blinds. Button picks 4 card omaha high only. Button live straddles for £4. If no double straddle, sb now acts 1st to put in £3 to call or option to raise.
If no raise bb acts next to call the extra £2 or raise etc. Play continues to button who now has option to fold/call/reraise. In a unraised family pot there is now £32 rather then £16.

After flop play starts with sb as usual.

Button keeps advantage of acting last now in a larger pot.

still don't get it


so SB acts 1st preflop?

I'm really confused

Yes, SB acts 1st preflop.

I get the feeling i play in some wild games as even the double straddle can come from any position.

i.e button can raise to £4 and UTG+2 can raise to £8. Chips are kept in front of players and action preflop starts position after last live straddle. UTG+3 acts first to fold/call £8/raise and round to button who only puts in £4 to call. SB calls £7, BB calls £6, UTG calls £8 etc. The last live straddle then has option to call/raise.

Most hands don't have a live straddle and as discussed starts more later in the night when the money has got deeper. Again difference in Dealers Choice rather than texas, but even in DC more than 1 live straddle starts to have -EV.

wow, thanks for the explanation, that is sheer lunacy.

sounds like something Flushy would come up with.

Great Post - it says what I think, but was unable to explain.

It is good fun, and very common in Northern cardrooms.

They were doing it in Manchester after APAT last month.

Didn't like it really - it changes your position at the table and that ain't fair, especially as it's usually the same group of people at one end of the table doing it :P

Yes, a nice situation to have.

Now consider if you are UTG and know that you have straddlers and re-straddlers after you. Is it now worth putting in £4 for them to go crazy? Lets say your pretty sure it will go 8-16-32

Note: I don't straddle.

If you could be sure it goes 8 - 16 - 32 every time then yes, it is probably plus EV.

As we are agreed that straddling is bad and -EV except for a few situations. Isn't it then bad and -EV that DTD don't allow it? Surely if it's -EV for whoever does it (and a few of us stay away) then it's an edge we have lost out on.

Has anyone brought up straddling in NL vs PL - there is a bit less point to a straddle in NL, which is my view makes it pretty much completely pointless in NL.

I just got back from Vegas and i discovered this gem in the $1-$3 nlh game in Treasure Island.

As its a no limit game under the gun can straddle for any amount they choose. So quite often the tame 1-3 game became a 1-3-10 game and even with 1 guy it became a 1-3-20 game.

At 1 point we were short handed and they we lost more players to leave me playing heads-up. Im the bb so i post my $3 then as the sb on the button he chooses to post $10.  I ask for a ruling to clarify the situation and im informed that hu the button can straddle for as much as he chooses predeal.

A very strange and rare situation but after the hand i myself now had to post $10 as a straddle otherwise i was giving away a huge edge HU on the button.

Played my first session in Vegas yesterday a couple of people straddled but know of them ever raised there own straddle and most past if someone raised theres.

i didnt straddle once and dont think i will be in the future there is so much money on offer for free in these games that there is no need to go out looking for it.