blonde poker forum

£100 freezeout, 10k starting. 70 runners, 9 paid. All the money in the top 3 as usual

Please guide me with the below


1  With blinds at 600-1,200, ante 200, 8 handed, 34 left

two limpers, EP and button, SB comes along and you are in BB with  6c 4d, checking

flop  5c 3c Jd

you have 30,000, button 40,000, other two less than 20,000

pot 6,400

you check, EP checks button bets 4,000, SB folds

button I know well, this is unlikely to be a monster pre-flop, limping on the button..could be Jx or clubs, could be nicking an orphan pot. 

your thought process here with the UDSD (up and down straight draw) would be? and why?


2.

blinds are now 1,000-2,000 with 400 ante. 13 players remain and you are 6 handed

you have 30,000 and are the short-stack at the table

in an unopened pot, second to act, into the active/gambling/Laggy blinds with 100,000 plus each

you look down at

 5c 5d

your action?


3.


blinds now 2,000-4,000 with 800 ante..12 remain

you have 23,000 on an aggressive table with not many spots to pick

unopened to you on the button with

 Ks Js into a bb with 250,000 of the 700,000 in play

a shove every time?
 

1- hmm.. either a) fold, your draw might not be good, there's a flushdraw there - find a better spot. B) raise him on the turn if you miss your draw C) call, Jam turn and steal. he's raising any 2 here a lot.
2- shove, you are gaining massive equity relative to your SS even if you just take the blinds.
3- presumably there are 6 players on the table? your M is terrible and you have no FE. shove for glory

p.s I am a donk. standard disclaimer applies - don't do what I say, or what I do.

1) i prolly lead most of the time. As played i call and rep a club if it comes or obv if my str8 hits i do whatever gets the money in the pot. V.Villain dependant here, v Nav i call, v Celtic/Snatty i raise to 12k and jam turn.

2) Use that image you have here. A min raise could actually work for you here a lot of the time. But personally its an easy fold, risky spot for a small gain most ot the time.

3) Jam all day long into average stack, not into this guy though.  Players get brave with chips. Also i dont like how low we let our stack get.

3) I wanted to be jamming earlier but unopened spots were non-existent and resteals off the monsters weren't that appealing

KJ is a good hand here. Infact i think we want a call. Go ai baby.

1 is a huge weakness in my game I feel, I folded but was fairly sure the correct move was the c/raise getting him off most hands though. Lacked the balls to do it

2. I standard raised and got raised all in by the button. I was getting 2-1 to call the re-raise but this player was solid, medium stacked and didn't need to mess with me. I folded and was shown QQ. This left me wounded with 12x bb but and M of single figures given the large antes...and looking for a spot that never came.

I wondered if anyone finds a fold with 55 and an unopened pot here? or is jam the consensus view?

3 I of course pushed, result irrelevant..wondered if the stack of the BB would influence anyone to wait though   

1) I'm normally open betting this with the up and down draw but seeing as we've checked I'm probably calling here. Further action to depend on so many factors seeing as we still have 3 oppos in the pot

2) We may be the short stack at the table but we're still deep enough to make the limp a good play on a normal table. However against laggy blinds the limp sucks. Our stack is too deep for the push, we're not yet at the stage where we need to accept a race (at best) for our tournament life. Standard raise I also don't like as the laggy players are likely to respond to it in exactly the same way as a limp, the only difference being it costs us more when/if we pass.
All other options discarde, I pass

3) Instapush

1. Tricky stack sizes if we or the button were shorter i would definitley shove, given your read that he rarely has a monster here, I think i  shove but folding is a pretty close 2nd.

2. I fold on this particular table as 15bb's is too big to shove and too small to play effectively postflop. On tighter table i open to 6000 as i feel i take the pot alot preflop.

3. Insta shove, its not close.

1: I would check-fold this to any action due to stacksizes...

2: Push, M is only 6 - I take my chances against the blinds and hope to triple up. Stack is detoriating too fast, as we pay 5400 each orbit. If you wait, it will still most likely be a coin toss for less chips...

3: Push as this hand is most likely way infront..

The lack of playing and more reading must be improving my game!

I totally agree here.

Hand 1 - I really dislike the c-r all-in in these situations because it makes the draw obvious. I had such a big hand I checked the flop....but now my oppo has put 4k into the pot I can't wait to jam for 30k?? Much better to c-r for 12k. This might seem a bit weird because you c-r half your stack...but imagine how that looks. In the eyes of your oppo your 12k bet is actually 30k because he KNOWS you are now committed. Betting 12k will have a deeper impact than betting 30k and is representative of a strong made hand not a flush or straight draw.

Hand 2 - Entirely dependant on your image. A standard raise is in order most of the time.

Hand 3 - A push every time

This is all very true and a good point but the reason people shove a draw here, is that the turn is a nightmare if he calls and we miss. Also our draw has the most equity on the flop.

My suggestion to this is that we make this play with more than draws and do it with monsters and air as well, this makes us hard to read. Alas in live play we rarely face this situation enough as few hands are played against various different unthinking opponents to create an image in this situation.

Our objective is to get our oppo to fold. When we push all-in we make a bet that looks like we want our oppo to fold and so this is why I don't like it. If he is holding Jack rag he will be MORE inclined to call because it looks like we don't want him to...and we don't...so all very easy to read. This is one of those situations where we are making a 30k bet by only risking 12k. Our oppo sees the implications of the bet not just the bet amount itself....so I really don't think he can CALL.

Our "pot-committing" c-r will force him to decide if his hand is good on the flop and he will make his decision there and then. He wont call with J rag only to call the expected all-in on the next street. So the question we pose by the 12k c-r is, Do you want to play your marginal hand for 30k? This is a more convincing indication of made strength and you achieve this by actually risking less. I am sure any hand that calls the 12k c-r would call an all-in anyway with the relative stack sizes.

1. Fold - Doing your chips when u catch a draw from the BB is quite common.  You have an M of around 9 meaning you will have decent fold equity for stealing the blinds/antes or shoving over any limpers to chip up, no need to chase this draw out of position against someone who has you beat at this point in time.

2.  I think this is a shove, You're really hoping to get this through without a caller, I prefer doing this from later position or even from the blinds if there is no major acts of strength but I think you will lose too much of your stack before position rolls back around for you to pass here.  I can maybe find a fold here if the players behind are pretty loose and will call, if you shove you REALLY dont want a call.  Thinking more about this, I may actually be inclined to pass and become a shoving machine once u hit the BB.

3. You must shove unless you want to try to blind out to the final table, you will blind out in 2 rounds of the table if you dont make it to the final before then, KJ suited is well within your shoving range especially unopened on the button

So now that we're pot committed do we call a shove and hope to hit?  If we're doing anything here I think we c-r all in but I still prefer to check-fold, no need to go out on a draw from the BB

Well of course you are calling a shove. Your getting 2.66-1 and you are getting about 2-1.
Also saying stuff llike no need to go out on draw in bb is meaningless

ONE:

My default would be to lead hand one - now that we didn't do that my default is to fold. The board texture provides a serious problem in that either:

- we have only 6 outs;
- we have 8 outs but never get paid when two of them hit;

If you checkraise here Jx isn't going away (I wouldn't be folding it that's for sure). Infact, if you checkraise here and get it in 66 - 1010 can legitamitely hero call you given that you've taken a 100% standard line for a flushdraw from the blinds.

Now, that being said, depending on the general standard of this particular cardroom and the villain in this hand - you may get bad tightweak folds if you force the matter. But if our opponents are competent and can read hands - you are just going to be getting chips in bad with no FE a lot of the time.

Additionally, a bet into this type of limped flop from the button is not ATC as much as you may like to think it is (or as much as it maybe should be). There are a lot of Jx hands that people will limp a button behind with; lots of XcXc type hands; 55; 33; 66 - 1010.

Calling this is NOT an option for me. We miss loads; we don't get more bets often enough when we hit. We are oop. We will have less than 2x the pot back on the turn if we do call. So I would just fold.

TWO:

Is close because the ante is so large and you are playing 6 handed. Guess at a range of hands they are willing to call with if you shove and work it out. Shoving cannot be THAT bad.

What is clear is that raise / folding or calling here IS pretty bad. On the one hand, your holding will compare badly against most any reasonable range that a villain holds if they stick you in and you call; but once you do raise it becomes less profitable to then fold as you have got an extra 12k into the pot which juices your odds on calling off the rest.

So shove or fold. Mmm. I think I shove a lot here in practice - simply because the ante is so large.

THREE:

You actually should want him to call after you ship.

Fwiw Rich, if you craised me i would fold 333.

Villain would have folded if I had check raised, we are good mates and feedback each other regularly

Kinda makes posting the hand somewhat pointless, no?

no!

given this info, it makes hand 1 an easy one to play! Absent this info (which is prolly the point of your post otherwise you shoulda put it in the OP!.....) I'd prolly lead, given that you didn't, I'd still prolly send it in, sure enough he doesn't need much to call a push, but he doesnt always have a made hand, and I doubt hes calling with A high, and underpairs to the Jack fold at least a certain % of the time.

2 and 3 id ship it in, would like to see the math coz on first glance I didn't think either were particularly close but it looks like at least hand 2 might be.

Eh, if you have a read that villain "would have folded if I check - raised" maybe include it in op? Cause if I knew that then I would suggest that the best line is to check - raise in this particular spot.  ::)

as I didn't know that when I did OP...then I couldn't put it in..sent the thread to villain and he told me after

Well, seen as the hand is now an abstract, lets assume that the villain is competent and can read hands. Obviously he will fold 66 - 1010 when he has them, but how often do we need him to fold them in order to profit?

I generally play draws in fifth gear - but only if the draw is clean and I reckon we can reasonably expect a lot of better hands to fold. Think of it like this:

if Hero flops one pair or better from the BB in a four way iimped pot on a board that is draw heavy does he ever ACTUALLY go for a checkraise? if Hero flops a flushdraw or a straightdraw from the BB in a four way limped pot on this type of board how often does he look to checkraise?

And crucially, even if the above doesn't apply to how Tightend normally plays and he is actually a very non - standard player - the key is that opponents will expect the above to be true. And will react here according to their expectations.

Right, well then your post on the first page where you lament the fact that you didn't have the balls to checkraise is balderdash. You couldn't have known that this dude was folding if you made a play at the pot. All you could do is work off the available information. I think check - raising in this type of spot is not good as per my initial post in this thread. As such, I think the line you took is a good one against the majority of opponents and you should feel good about the hand because you played it well.

There are many ways to be results orientated you know!! (irony ftw)

It all boils down to what % of his limping range is he gonna bet in this spot, once checked to,  and granted that wont be too high a %, which consequently means the F.E of the c/r should be quite low,  so shipping in here prolly isn't the best move, and check fold is most likely > check/send, but I cant help myself

Discipline is kinda important in poker.

sigh! there are many ways to be like a dog with a bone too!!!

At the table, at the time, I wish I had gone for it and filed away the thought for putting a thread up..hence my comments

Posted by: TightEnd
 
I think this is the whole foundation of Hand 1. TightEnd SENSES weakness. The above is how it logically manifests itself into conscious thought. As such, if you c-r to 12k you make a play that looks like strength and has the best chance of exposing that weakness. I think the probabilty of completing the draw is insignificant and not really worth worrying about because all we are looking to do is jump on that perceived weakness and the question is how do we do this? TightEnd is then disappointed because he had a gut feeling/read, didn't have the faith in it to follow through, and allowed the cards themselves to direct him. What is the point in even entertaining the above thoughts if you then refer back to the cards to arrive at a final decision? The disappoinment comes from not having faith in the "feel" aspect of poker imo.

1) From the info given I don't mind the pass at all. Enough chips left not to go chasing draws. With the later info given about oppo I would c raise most of the time.

2) Push every time for me. You are shortie and it's only 6 handed. You can't afford to wait around for a spot to push. The fact the oppo showed queens is irrelevant. You didn't know this when making the decision. If you're aiming for the money, i.e. top 3 you need chips. Although you don't particularly want a call, one from the gambling lags, as opposed to the solid players, offers the best chance of a much needed double up.

3) Inst shove in this situation.

I WAS THE VILLAIN!!!!!!!

Told Richard i would have passed to a push due to chip stacks. Felt i was in front at that point but the board was draw heavy (flushing & straightening) and with a small % of my chips ivested would have seen no need to risk versus a draw. (they always hit & i always miss)

Will call you next time tho Rich if u decided to try that move after all this advice you have been receiving.

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Liar, ud fold like a lil girl ;)

Its tighty FFS!

sssssh, i'm trying to bluff here ;)