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Title: Common river situation, are we always beat? Post by: Longy on January 03, 2008, 06:05:15 PM So as the title says are we always beat? Im playing 22/18/3 which my standard style. Opponent is clearly a fish playing 58/14/1 through 200 hands, we haven't clashed much as yet, somehow.
Comments on the rest of hand are welcome. Prima Network No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) saw flop|saw showdown UTG ($30.37) Hero ($120.87) CO ($106.56) Button ($97.57) SB ($93.25) BB ($130.84) Preflop: Hero is MP with 9h 7h 1 fold, Hero raises to $3.5, CO calls $3.50, 3 folds. Flop: ($8.50) 9c 5s 7c(2 players) Hero bets $6, CO calls $6. Turn: ($20.50) Jh (2 players) Hero bets $17, CO calls $17. River: ($54.50) Qh(2 players) Hero bets $35, CO raises to $80.06 (All-In), Hero??? Final Pot: $169.56 Title: Re: Common river situation, are we always beat? Post by: doubleup on January 03, 2008, 06:36:37 PM No you are not *always* beat. I have seen AA/KK played this way, but villain doesnt seem passive enough pre to do this. There a shitload of draws out there as well all of which have missed, so I think I would have to call unless villain is incapable of bluffing a missed draw.
Title: Re: Common river situation, are we always beat? Post by: TightEnd on January 03, 2008, 06:43:11 PM Longy...an interested question here...
talk me through the river bet of $35...if you are fearing you are beat have you made up your mind to call a push when you bet here, did you consider a check to catch a bluff or are you value betting? Title: Re: Common river situation, are we always beat? Post by: Longy on January 03, 2008, 06:49:49 PM Longy...an interested question here... talk me through the river bet of $35...if you are fearing you are beat have you made up your mind to call a push when you bet here, did you consider a check to catch a bluff or are you value betting? I was value betting Tighty but in truth got the sizing wrong as I didn't know what to do if I got pushed on. Im probably not thinking through things enough as I have added a couple more tables today so that im 6tabling and making mistakes cos im rushing things. Title: Re: Common river situation, are we always beat? Post by: bobby1 on January 03, 2008, 06:50:41 PM Im not happy but I have to call $45 more with $169 in the middle, plenty of busted draws but I would be surprised if he is gonna bluff $45 bucks more on the end unless he is just hoping.
I think at over 7/2 its a call and if he has backed into summat like k 10 clubs or a bigger 2 pair then so be it as I think he raises on the turn with a set. When you bet on the end what was your plan? lol tighty beat me to it. Title: Re: Common river situation, are we always beat? Post by: KingPoker on January 03, 2008, 06:56:39 PM Agree with Bobby in the fact he would have RR'd surely if he hit JJJ on the turn.
Looks like he is making a bad All in bluff with air, ur still ahead of AA/KK and a stupid call by him on the flop if he has QJ. The flat calling of ur bets suggests a drawing hand or slowplaying of AA/KK and I cant quite see what hand he had which is beating u here. Title: Re: Common river situation, are we always beat? Post by: Ironside on January 03, 2008, 07:01:06 PM just a silly question but what are the 22/18/3 and the 58/14/1 mean
i think the first number is the amount of times they have put money into the pot when they dont have to and the 2nd number is how many times they raised preflop but i aint 100% i have seen plenty of fish play like this with AQc or KQc have to watch out for the QJc though Title: Re: Common river situation, are we always beat? Post by: Longy on January 03, 2008, 07:19:46 PM just a silly question but what are the 22/18/3 and the 58/14/1 mean i think the first number is the amount of times they have put money into the pot when they dont have to and the 2nd number is how many times they raised preflop but i aint 100% i have seen plenty of fish play like this with AQc or KQc have to watch out for the QJc though They are poker tracker stats that I have displayed using Poker Ace Hud when playing, in order VPIP (how many times someone enters the pot voluntarily)/ Pre Flop Raise %/ Agression Factor (Worked out by dividing the amount time you raise/bet by the amount time you call). Title: Re: Common river situation, are we always beat? Post by: AlexMartin on January 03, 2008, 07:45:44 PM V a TAG i generally call this as they tend to flat call the river w AQc/AJc rather than v bet light on the river. Ur good here a whole heap of the time v a decent player. I thought river $35 was a blocker bet to test oppo, im not sure but is: v betting your hand here<inducing a bluff ?
Of course what would be sick is if oppo knows ur blocker betting and you know he knows ur blocker betting, but now im just getting into 1. V a fish at a 6max table i prolly fold, his aggro factor is too low for this to be a bluff enough of the time. Plus a better spot is just waiting round the corner....or till he hit and runs and uses ur money in a donkament entry. Title: Re: Common river situation, are we always beat? Post by: bobby1 on January 03, 2008, 08:11:16 PM V a TAG i generally call this as they tend to flat call the river w AQc/AJc rather than v bet light on the river. Ur good here a whole heap of the time v a decent player. I thought river $35 was a blocker bet to test oppo, im not sure but is: v betting your hand here<inducing a bluff ? Of course what would be sick is if oppo knows ur blocker betting and you know he knows ur blocker betting, but now im just getting into 1. V a fish at a 6max table i prolly fold, his aggro factor is too low for this to be a bluff enough of the time. Plus a better spot is just waiting round the corner....or till he hit and runs and uses ur money in a donkament entry. As a river blocker it is a nice bet imho, but surely the thinking behind the bet is that if I check and he bets 80 bucks do I feel confident enuff to call with my hand even tho it could well be a bluff, so what I will do is bet enough so he cant bluff and accept then Im gonna have to call if he moves in as my pot odds are too good? or am I getting myself into one? Title: Re: Common river situation, are we always beat? Post by: AlexMartin on January 03, 2008, 08:15:51 PM Quote from: [url=http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=1198 Alex[/url] Martin (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=1198) link=topic=30175.msg619103#msg619103 date=1199389544] V a TAG i generally call this as they tend to flat call the river w AQc/AJc rather than v bet light on the river. Ur good here a whole heap of the time v a decent player. I thought river $35 was a blocker bet to test oppo, im not sure but is: v betting your hand here<inducing a bluff ? Of course what would be sick is if oppo knows ur blocker betting and you know he knows ur blocker betting, but now im just getting into 1. V a fish at a 6max table i prolly fold, his aggro factor is too low for this to be a bluff enough of the time. Plus a better spot is just waiting round the corner....or till he hit and runs and uses ur money in a donkament entry. As a river blocker it is a nice bet imho, but surely the thinking behind the bet is that if I check and he bets 80 bucks do I feel confident enuff to call with my hand even tho it could well be a bluff, so what I will do is bet enough so he cant bluff and accept then Im gonna have to call if he moves in as my pot odds are too good? or am I getting myself into one? I think its a nice blocker bet too. It gives us quality INFORMATION and we shouldnt call his shove as now the likelihood of him bluffing has gone down significantly. Esp the way longy plays i think this is a fold mostly. Fuck i just realised he's got 810 right. Title: Re: Common river situation, are we always beat? Post by: bobby1 on January 03, 2008, 08:30:53 PM Quote from: [url=http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=1198 Alex[/url] Martin (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=1198) link=topic=30175.msg619103#msg619103 date=1199389544] V a TAG i generally call this as they tend to flat call the river w AQc/AJc rather than v bet light on the river. Ur good here a whole heap of the time v a decent player. I thought river $35 was a blocker bet to test oppo, im not sure but is: v betting your hand here<inducing a bluff ? Of course what would be sick is if oppo knows ur blocker betting and you know he knows ur blocker betting, but now im just getting into 1. V a fish at a 6max table i prolly fold, his aggro factor is too low for this to be a bluff enough of the time. Plus a better spot is just waiting round the corner....or till he hit and runs and uses ur money in a donkament entry. As a river blocker it is a nice bet imho, but surely the thinking behind the bet is that if I check and he bets 80 bucks do I feel confident enuff to call with my hand even tho it could well be a bluff, so what I will do is bet enough so he cant bluff and accept then Im gonna have to call if he moves in as my pot odds are too good? or am I getting myself into one? I think its a nice blocker bet too. It gives us quality INFORMATION and we shouldnt call his shove as now the likelihood of him bluffing has gone down significantly. Esp the way longy plays i think this is a fold mostly. Fuck i just realised he's got 810 right. Its a big fold in my eyes and one that a quality player can make so maybe its summat that I have to think about too, my thought in these spots is, well I gotta call for $45 more but you are right the information he gives us should be listened too more often. Title: Re: Common river situation, are we always beat? Post by: Longy on January 05, 2008, 09:51:24 PM Thanks for the replys. I folded to the all in on the river, there was a clue accidentally given in the OP which I didn't mean to give.
My thinking now on the hand is that my bet sizing on the river is poor either i make it more and call any shove or make it smaller allowing myself to pass. I think i like the latter, making it about $25. As for inducing a bluff I don't like it against this opponent as i felt he was too passive to try and bluff this river when balanced with often he called a value bet with an inferior hand. Title: Re: Common river situation, are we always beat? Post by: johnbhoy76 on January 06, 2008, 01:40:07 PM I don't think you should have bet on the end. Just check-call
He's called you down to the river with something and IMHO it is either a monster hand that he's slow playing or a draw. I think given what you know about him he was on a draw so he has either hit it or missed it on the river. If he has missed then you wont get anymore out of him by betting on the river but if you check then the only way he can take the pot is to try to bluff you off it, so you pick up some extra chips when he does that. So it's a check-call on the river from me |