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http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/04/us/04dna.html?ref=us

OK so this guy was only convicted to 99 years in prison but it has happened to people on death row. And with other forms of DNA tests now having been found unreliable in the UK surely it goes to show that 1; Evidence should always be kept. 2; New inventions might prove someone innocent so it's a bad idea to kill them.

"15th Dallas County Inmate Since ’01 Is Freed by DNA
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Del.icio.usDiggFacebookNewsvinePermalinkBy RALPH BLUMENTHAL
Published: January 4, 2008
HOUSTON — After nearly 27 years in prison for a rape he did not commit, Charles Chatman walked free on Thursday, the 15th wrongfully convicted prisoner in Dallas County to be exonerated by DNA testing since 2001.

The innocence claims of seven other Dallas-area prisoners are pending, thanks in large part to a crime laboratory that, unlike others in Texas, has preserved evidence going back as long as three decades.

“I’m bitter toward what happened,” Mr. Chatman, 46, said by telephone after Judge John Creuzot of State District Court, who had championed a review of his case, ordered him released in a jubilant Dallas courtroom.

“He’s my fourth one,” said Judge Creuzot, who had invited Mr. Chatman to his courtroom on Wednesday to hear the news that a DNA sample recently taken from him did not match the profile from the rape victim’s vaginal swab of 1981.

The judge said that he had bought Mr. Chatman a T-bone steak for lunch but that he had to instruct him how to use a knife to cut the meat — he was only allowed spoons in prison — and later showed him his first cellular phone and helped him call his family.

Dressed in a new blue blazer, gray slacks, blue shirt and red tie bought by his lawyers, Mr. Chatman said he harbored no feelings of animosity toward the neighbor who had misidentified him as her rapist, earning him a 99-year sentence. But he said he felt he was victimized because he was black.

“I want to let the world know what happened,” he said, “I won’t shy away from that.”

Mr. Chatman, who had been locked up since age 20, said he had lost three chances for release by insisting to the Parole Board, “I never committed the crime.”

He said he wanted to work alongside his lawyers, Jeff Blackburn, Natalie Roetzel and Michelle Moore, to help others he had met in prison prove their innocence. The lawyers work with the Innocence Project of Texas, a consortium of university law clinics that has been using DNA evidence to exonerate people who were wrongly convicted.

The lawyers and District Attorney Craig Watkins of Dallas County credited Judge Creuzot for taking a personal role in the case. But they also said the unusual string of exonerations was made possible by the many specimens saved by the Southwest Institute of Forensic Sciences, the laboratory under contract to Dallas County, and the latest DNA testing by Orchid Cellmark, a leading genetic research organization.

“I think we’re no worse than any other part of the country,” Judge Creuzot, 50, said of the wrongful convictions. “We just keep the samples.”

Mr. Watkins, who made history in 2006 as the first African-American elected a district attorney in Texas, agreed.

“People look at Dallas County as an anomaly,” he said. “We’re not. We just have the DNA.” He said his office had reviewed 80 other claims of wrongful conviction and submitted seven cases for tests.

“This is not the end of it,” he said. “There’s a feeling of finally getting things right in the criminal justice system.”

Mr. Blackburn, chief counsel of the Innocence Project of Texas, said Texas needed an Innocence Commission to officially investigate claims of wrongful conviction. A bill to create a commission died in the Texas Legislature last year.

Exonerations have been making news elsewhere in the country. Since 1973, according to the Death Penalty Information Center, a nonprofit group specializing in capital punishment issues, 126 prisoners in 26 states have been released from death row based on evidence of their innocence. Eight of the cases were in Texas, but Florida led with 22, followed by Illinois with 18, the center said.

The Innocence Project said Mr. Chatman appeared to be the longest-serving prisoner exonerated. In March 2005, a Cuban refugee, Luis Díaz-Martínez, was released as innocent after 26 years in prison for a rash of rapes in the Miami area."

Yeah but rushing all those executions through in Texas got George Bush jnr a decent rep as a hardliner which got him eventually elected as president, so it was gods will. It doesn't matter that some of them were innocent, don't you just love america.

devils advocate...


I understand that DNA evidence can overturn past wrong convictions and that is of course excellent

but for new cases, with modern science and incontrovertible DNA, is there not a stronger case for the death penalty than in times past?

Tell that to the guys convicted in the UK because of dodgy DNA evidence (In the news not that long ago in scotland plenty cases being reviewed again)..I'll try to find the article

I am talking of modern cases, not those even of 2-3 years ago, the DNA technology has moved on since

It makes me feel sick. I wonder if he will ever have to face his 'god' and answer for that or if he will chalk it up as 'eye for an eye'?

He's just a moronic puppet, we don't get to know who to really hold accountable for this kind of thing. If you have money you can kill people in America, it's proven.

Explain the proof please?

Didn't they think it was foolproof 2-3 years ago as well? :P

sure but I am being difficult for the sake of it

oj simpson, phil spector

right.

 ;hide;

That's the point though, the science keeps moving on and showing things that were thought to incontrovertible previously to be plain wrong.

What level of certainty of guilt would you be happy with before sending someone to their death?

personally I wouldn't BUT I think it becomes a more arguable matter (and a stronger argument for supporters of capital punishment)  as the technology continues to reduce the possibility of miscarriages, to a point where presumably the chances of such are infinitessimal

OJ never killed no one a jury said so

I agree, however for a long time now it has been argued that DNA evidence is infallible when it qute clearly isn't (actually the DNA itsself is, the test isn't) and that's the problem.

serious point to A2M

You might think OJ and Spector were clear cut cases, I might think that..but if found not guilty (because the prosecution fails to make the case to a high enough standard) that is not, to my mind "proof" that those with money can murder

I was,to be frank, expecting a stronger counter-argument than that given your assertion

i'll draft up something a bit more interesting. off hand these seemed like the easiest illustrations of system manipulatable by money.

Corporate 'murder' with no consequence for individuals is also well documented.

There is rarely any such thing as clear-cut, 100% guilt. The guilt has to be proven in court - which is essentially a game you're trying to win. And, like any game, there are things you can do to improve your chances of winning. The more money you have, the more likely it is that you will be able to have access to these tactics.

and that is the same in any country?

nope Prince Phillip allegedly did away with diana but all fayid's money hasnt got him into the dock yet

lmao

sigh, there were no planes that went into the WTC either, it was a hologram

r u sure?

the usa legal system is a joke, i cant blame the oj simpson jury for finding him innocent even if they thought he was guilty, at the time of the trial they where expecting a lot of riots and killings if he was found guilty, so how did the usa protect this jury, they allowed cnn and the media to camp out outside the houses of people on that jury,

any Jury system is severely flawed and I can not believe a civilised country still goes with it.

alternative being? relying on the views of a small panel of judges?

Small panel of judges (3-5) with 2 independent people (again experts) attending the trial to check and see that the judges don't go out of line..yeah I think that's better than having people with no knowledge about, sometimes, very complex issues making a desicion. (You should also know that I consider most people too thick to understand even the most basic things..which is why they read the Sun)

I have some sympathy for this Boldie

I did jury service four years ago..a personal fraud case that lasted a fortnight

the two people on trial were Asian. (relevance later)

It was complex and when it came to deliberation I was elected foreman and led the discussions

These were to last 8 hours

One lad read the sun throughout, and said right at the start "he's guilty, let me know when you agree, I want to go home"
and took no further part

Conversely another juror was Asian, and said "I will not convict a fellow Asian, no matter what you say I think he's been framed"

so I have to try and lead an agreement!

In the end we came to a 11-1 decision once directed that a majority verdict was acceptable by the judge...but no amount of rational evidence would have persuaded the two extremes above to change their view

And that is the main problem I have with the jury system. either it is too complex for people to understand (Fraud cases especially can be horrendously difficult) or people don't care/ are prejudiced because someone looks "off".

Rushing through the executions did not get George Bush elected, it was a multitude of things like some Arab money, a well connected Daddy, A brother that helps make ballots favorable.

Yes i know is one of the many conspiracy theorys, however there are a lot of coincidences when you look at all of the facts presented during the reign of G W Bush. What i found incredible was G W Bush allowed the entire Bin Laden family out of the USA when all aircraft was supposedly grounded, He flew them out!!

I also think its disturbing that his daddy g Bush Sr  was meeting with the bin laden family, this guy has and uses his access to CIA briefing files, one of the few past presidents to use his access as it happens.

From the outside it looks like the bush family are playing havoc with a country to further their own wealth, and not content on ruining the country of their birth,  they set their sights on pillaging other countries.

arrgh i got in to a rant there.

i was on jury duty for a week 10 years ago and gave what you say a lot of thought, there is no perfect legal system, i suppose  you can only make it as good as you can, trouble is maybe anyone on a professional jury would become very cynical, but then again they would at least follow the case properly and if i was innocent and was on trial, yes i would prefer a professional type of jury big or small.,i was sickened at the attitude of some of the people on jury duty and still think its wrong that people on jury duty are allowed to go the pub in there dinner break, i remember a couple of times people saying things like, never heard a word the last hour i was falling asleep and laughing,only half the jury really put any facts for argument when we considered verdict. so its down to a luck what type of people you get to decide your fate

Thats why most lawyers in this country try and get the defendant to plead before it goes to jury, they make alot more money that way and alot less time having to defend someone against a stupid jury.

That old chestnut again? I know many sun readers who are more intelligent than the broadsheet readers. You are sooo judgemental my dutch friend ;whistle;

As for the old boys club having the decisions at their hands, I'd prefer an army of sun readers any day of the week. Most of them don't have skeletons or position to lose if they make the 'wrong' decisions. I wouldn't trust that setup with a bargepole, unless of course I was part of the old boys club :)

An Army of Sun readers to judge you?..yikes!

Raises an interesting question, can we have an impartial press coverage without agenda?

yes and Id be 'not guilty' every time my friend :)

not while it makes money from lies and deception

True..I'd be screwed though

Well get rid of the jury system, get into this lot and I'm sure you will be sorted:)

I think a lot of peoples views on the death penalty change (if against it in the 1st place),  if the "victim" of such a crime worthy of this sentence is one of their own.

The trouble with experts is that they might turn out to be like the one in the Kieren Fallon case or maybe  Professor Roy Meadows whose expert views convinced a jury to convict an innocent woman of murdering her children.



Not Sun readers this time! was it not Mail readers who were feeling the brunt of your sweeping generalisations a couple of weeks ago?
If you personally know people who read these papers and they fall into the derogatory categories that you like to put them in, then maybe it says more about the company you keep than the mindset of the millions of readers in total that these newspapers have.

The experts would be keeping an eye on the judges to make sure they don't do anything you'd only find in a banana republic call them independent observers. they would not be active particapants in the trial.. I apologize if I didn't make that clear.


Sun readers AND Mail readers, my friend..I discriminate and insult equally and could include a lot more papers in that list :) I consider most of mankind to be; Self-obsessed, cruel, uncaring, stupid, greedy, ignorant and lazy. (I could throw some more terms in there but I think you get the jist.)

I see the proof for this on a daily bases; everywhere around me I see dodgy politicians not taking any responsibilities for their actions and the public doesn't care..they still vote them in. The same public cares more about who wins the X-factor, pop idol or Big brother and therefore that attracts more votes than a general election.
More money is made from 1 season of the X-factor than is made from Children in need or Comic Relief.

The public is more concerned about what's going on with Britney Spears than what's going on in Sierra Leone or Kenya. As long as the house prices don't drop people are happy. They are all pissed off with all the immigrants coming over here..BUT don't want to do the shitty jobs and would immediatly hire a Polish labourer and pay him cash if it meant they could have an extention built for 3k less.

The general public as an entity is a brainless sheep that does what it is told to do. I know many smart individuals but the general public is as thick as pigshit and it does not care about anything other than itsself.
The Sun is the UK's most read "newspaper" and therefore it can be said that IF the public is indeed thick the people who read the Sun are also thick. They just want to stare at some titties on page three and hear what Angela (23 from London) thinks about Britney shaving her head than they want to read about things that actually matter..as long as they can go on with their little lives they don't give a shit.

Bit of a mysanthrope?..yeah I probably am..but kid yourself not mate..if you fell down on an average street in a big city in the UK people would just walk past you and most of them would give you a wide birth..rather than checking to see if anything might be wrong. The world is a truly shitty place at the moment (maybe it has always been, I don't  know..it just seems more uncaring lately) and people don't give a crap...I think the public (and the Sun readers) well and truly deserve to be treated with contempt and should get a  kick up the arse, and wake up and do something.

Just my two cents obviously :)

Well aren't you a ray of sunshine! :(
The people who I work with that buy the Sun seem to read the sport pages and do the crossword in their dinner break, I'm pretty sure they don't buy it to keep abreast of International conflicts or Political shenanigans, just a bit of entertainment in their working day, they could have Sky news or BBC news 24 on constantly at home for all I know or maybe they secretly get the Guardian or FT delivered but don't bring it to work in case they get the piss taken out of them by people who judge a persons political persuasions, intelligence and morals by the newspaper that they read.
There were two letters in my local paper over Christmas that were quite heartwarming, one from a lady who had fallen outside a local supermarket and was writing to thank the strangers who came to her aid and one from a lady who had lost her purse and someone had handed it in to market staff who were able to call the purse owner over the Tannoy and return it to her, both letters ended with the statement that they had their "faith in human nature restored".
If all you look for is doom and gloom that's all your going to get and it's true that muggings and thefts get bigger headlines than the thank you letters but there are good people out there, you just have to look a little harder for them.

aye:)

wader you know people that buy the sun


surely that deseves the death penalty

not for buying the sun

but for knowing someone that buys it

oh bugger my mum buys it as she kept losing the radio times

and the sun has the best tv guide in her opinion

so i am off to get a noose

Thanks Ironside,
I've never had a poem written about me before :)