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FullTiltPoker Game #4881917928: $110 + $9 Sit & Go (Turbo) (37060253), Table 1 - 400/800 - No Limit Hold'em - 14:05:20 ET - 2008/01/16
Seat 1: chris0388 (6,174)
Seat 2: kozmo820 (980)
Seat 4: DonkeyDingle (2,726)
Seat 9: UpTheMariners (3,620)
UpTheMariners posts the small blind of 400
chris0388 posts the big blind of 800
The button is in seat #4
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to UpTheMariners [5d  Ahrt]
kozmo820 folds
DonkeyDingle folds
UpTheMariners has 15 seconds left to act
UpTheMariners raises to 3,620, and is all in

Is this a bad shove considering that kozmo820 has 1BB and that the chipleader is going to call with a wide range of hands?

I like shoving in this spot.  I defo move in.

Il wait for longy to do his magic calculations tho.

I think its shove im abit out of practice to be honest so i might be wrong. Off to check back in a mo.

Yep looks like a shove I doubt he call you particularly wide here something like top 20% i would guess. This would be a +1.0% push against this range making around $10 on average, more than big enough edge.

Its break even if he calls with top 30%.

I'm not sure about that. It's completely unnecessary for the bb & big cl to call for half his stack with any marginal hand here. If the ss hangs around he can batter the field and get chips the easy way so he wont mind the current situation.

Also because of the ss situation your push does look like a hand...so I think the bb only calls with premium. I think it's a good time to push because while all eyes are on 4th place, you're already thinking about 1st.

Mantis is right, if a5o is at the bottom of your range bb should only call with top 10%. Plus he doesn't want to give up his pwning rights on the bubble which has a bit of equity attached to it. He is still chip daddy after this hand.

the reason why i said he would call with a wide range is because ive seen him make some dodgy calls and his stats suggest that he's a losing player. often a player will make a bad call which will affect both of us.

I push all day long, he still needs a hand to call, and especially if you think he may call with any K or QJ...

The BB should be folding AK here, if you have him as a good player the shove is fine, if you have him as a bad player that may call with something like A9/AT or a middle pair Id just give it up and let the SS go out over the next 2 hands

Really? In a satellite maybe, in a normal STT never... Playing for first is crucial...

Playing for the money is most crucial though. Making the cash is no1 priority.  I tend to go for the cash first, then go for 1st spot.

if the BB is loose then i fold like a little girl. a decent player has alot of fold equity because theres no need to risk passing us the chiplead here. also a decent player is less likely to think we're shoving a weak ace into them on the bubble because on the surface it looks foolish.. when actually its EV+ against tight players. in this situation i really don't like it though. it really should be about making the money then once you're there start gambling.

If you think the others have the same mentality, exactly the reason to get even more aggressive...

I disagree with all of this, no way should the chip leader fold ak here in a month of sundays, you are setting light to at least $10 doing this against even tight ranges. A10,55  is about borderline calls given we can assume that the bottom of Mariners range is around a5o.

Given this extra information this looks pretty damn close and given how bad he is, I might find a pass here. You reckon he is calling 30%+ here?

Neither is strictly true, though on the bubble as the non chipleader Silo view tends to be closer to the truth. I would say just learn ICM as our aim should be to make the most money long term.

Yes, very good. All four of you left in the comp recognise the situation. But who is going to take advantage of it? It is easy for the cl to take advantage...and he will. It's less easy for you but the opportunity to do so exists nonetheless. It's easier and less risky to fold and wait for the bubble to burst but when it does the cl is going to have a commanding advantage...an advantage you allowed to happen. Not only that, if the ss gets a couple of breaks you could be sweating on 4th yourself....it costs 1,200 every 4 hands and you have 3,600. The cl will be loving his power right now and wont be keen to toss it away on a coin flip.

I typed that in work and didnt think about the stack sizes properly.  If Mariner had him covered (say for example they switched stacks) then he should fold AK as Mariner could eliminate him on the bubble when another player would be committed all in on the next hand.  As he is CL and he will still cover the 2 other stacks if he loses then calling with AK isnt bad here but I could still find a fold against Mariners stack mainly because of the shorty all in next hand.  Its not too hard for the Cl here to lose to Mariner and double him, the double the shorty and he's not in good shape at all.

The main aim in these should be to cash, you're playing for top 3.  Once you break the bubble then you can think about going for the win.

I learned how to play these watching the videos on cardrunners and they talk about the importance of pushing aggressively when you have chips to accumulate blinds and they stress avoiding calling off large portions of your stack unless you really have to.  They also say that when your shoving you're hoping the guy you're shoving into understands proper push/fold strategy and bubble play and can fold an ace high, if you dont think they do then you have to be careful with what you shove.  If you feel that this guy is a loose cannon Id walk him, if you rated him or if he seemed somewhat reasonable Id shove on him.

Ok yes if we changed the stacks around calling with ak is probably a biggish mistake, even if mariners is pushing 100% which he definitley should be.  Range for calling here is something like qq+.

As for cardrunners stuff im sure whoever is doing the sng vids on there knows what they are doing, but poker isn't about sweeping generalisations and while what they say is true most of the time they are saying it because that is what ICM has taught them.

Learning ICM >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Watching Cardrunners vids (though im sure they are quite good).

i had a situation on the bubble last night, and was wondering whether this is a bad push?? as soon as i did it i thought i could have made a mistake

Full Tilt Poker Game #4903480573: $22 + $2 Sit & Go (Turbo) (37228629), Table 1 - 120/240 - No Limit Hold'em - 7:40:54 ET - 2008/01/18
Seat 2: linehaul222 (8,105)
Seat 4: Edgy811 (1,695)
Seat 5: rockinonyas (1,250)
Seat 8: daluno (2,450)
daluno posts the big blind of 240
The button is in seat #5
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Edgy811 [Ac Jd]
linehaul222 calls 240
Edgy811 raises to 1,695, and is all in

is this a bad push considering we are on the bubble and the massive chip leader has limped?

Looks alright to me, unless this is something really out of line for utg to do given reads. For example if someone who I thought was "good" did this I would fold as it is bound to be aa/kk. Against random i shove.

couldn't be more standard...

I'm shoving AJ all day long here

cool, he folded anyway so didnt really matter. just wanted to ask really

Its fine, I dont find the logic in a big chip leader limping with a monster here, as its unlikely 1 of you 3 will shove without a decent hand, all he has to do is raise and you 3 will run a mile...

I will be honest i virtually never do it, but i think theoretically its fine with aa especially if your unknown to your opponents. This hand being a perfect example no way should agentchip call a shove from you with aj here which is what you want, but he will shove aj correctly if you limp.

Of course im shoving virtually any two blind here and therefore me suddenly limping a hand looks really super weird.

another similar situation here earlier today, although i do think i should of pushed here now...

FullTiltPoker Game #4953651252: $110 + $9 Sit & Go (Turbo) (37602128), Table 1 - 200/400 - No Limit Hold'em - 12:05:18 ET - 2008/01/22
Seat 3: Pipcelot (4,583)
Seat 5: alstbr (405)
Seat 6: UpTheMariners (1,190)
Seat 7: solohomer (7,322)
solohomer posts the small blind of 200
Pipcelot posts the big blind of 400
The button is in seat #6
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to UpTheMariners [ Td  Aspades]
alstbr folds
UpTheMariners has 15 seconds left to act
UpTheMariners folds
solohomer raises to 7,322, and is all in
Pipcelot folds
Uncalled bet of 6,922 returned to solohomer
solohomer mucks
solohomer wins the pot (800)
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 800 | Rake 0
Seat 3: Pipcelot (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 5: alstbr didn't bet (folded)
Seat 6: UpTheMariners (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 7: solohomer (small blind) collected (800), mucked

You're just hoping that alstbr doesnt get a walk or double up next hand and itll be fine.  Although in some cases solohomer doesnt shove if you shove, he could just be taking advantage of the 2 short stacks to steal the blinds from the 2nd place stack.

Hmmm looks very close, depends on how much bb looks you up. Im be tempted to dump it cos im a nit, from my ICM calcs it looks like it make very little difference in equity either way.

both sb and bb are loose players which is always a problem!