blonde poker forum

Very early on in the Stars EPT Ladder Stage.

I'm pretty sure he won't pass if I move in here, the raise is too big for me to flat-call. What do people think? And what range of hands do you put him on?

PokerStars Game #14921749931: Tournament #75625987, $200+$15 Hold'em No Limit - Level I (10/20) - 2008/01/29 - 21:13:36 (ET)
Table '75625987 1' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: Foaming_H (1500 in chips)
Seat 2: casinokid780 (1540 in chips)
Seat 3: sirjames4 (1450 in chips)
Seat 4: Floops (1470 in chips)
Seat 5: stevie444 (1470 in chips)
Seat 6: deut23-10 (1510 in chips)
Seat 7: DreamWeaver1 (1745 in chips)
Seat 8: BluffMag (2000 in chips)
Seat 9: Onanist (815 in chips)
deut23-10: posts small blind 10
DreamWeaver1: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Foaming_H [Ks Ahrt]
BluffMag is connected
BluffMag: folds
Onanist: folds
Foaming_H: raises 40 to 60
casinokid780: raises 240 to 300
sirjames4: folds
Floops: folds
stevie444: folds
deut23-10: folds
DreamWeaver1: folds
Foaming_H: folds

I pass here and did this with ak as a matter of course against most players when i played sngs. No need to felt non paired hands in the 1st level.

What is the payout structure, it does make a difference but unless its winner take all, I doubt it makes much difference.

1st and 2nd -- Step 5
3rd -- Step 4 (the one I'm currently on)
4th and 5th -- Step 3
6th -- Step 2.

I found that the standard to be fairly mixed, but for him to 5 x my raise means A-K or a scared medium to big pair.

Edit, big meaning JJ-TT...

Hmmm interesting never play steps, so never played such a funky payout structure. It does make me lean even more to passing though.

I am programmed to hate folding AK preflop but yeah I can't see many people making such a large raise with AQ, especially early in a Step 4, so folding is probably good. If folding is a mistake it can only be a very small one unless it's a very atypical villain.

Nit. I shove here like always.

I agree, thought I'm not a STT player. You have to play the Step4 like a proper STT as only top 3 will really do, so would be interested in what the STT pushbots have to say.

I dont think it is a shove all the way....against a solid player- at the very LEAST you are up against a pair from 9's to queens and a big dog a small amount of times with them having AA or KK, so in all of these instances you are a dog(-ve exp over the course of it) albeit a small dog against underpairs(55/45), but over time you will lose out. Obviously the odd time you will be up against an ideal AQ or AQs but I think there is a far bigger range of hands you are behind against.

It could be a complete donk playing something like KQs but you dont have enough information yet to determine this so I dont think it is a shove

trivial fold

i'd say less than half of winning STT pushboy strat pros who play this limit would even raise AK here let alone re-raise shove against an unknown in the first level!!!

You can't look at the limit though as the Steps sats are not filled with 215$ players but with 20 and 7$ players

look like 10 10 or j j or q q to me........i race here to get into a favourable position to pressure other stacks once the blinds get bigger.as Boldie says,a lot of people have climbed from smaller buyin levels and the standard of play is not always great,even level 5 and 6

standard

I think the payout structure means a push makes more sense here than in a normal stt
someone who has climbed from step 1 can probably pass QQ here just because they don't want to start again

Hmm i prefer Green & Blue cards and these are Red and Black so probably fold.

Would call if they were suited though coz with the four colour deck, suited cards look amazing (esp Blue & Green ones as iv said).

Id probably call if one was Blue & one was Green aswell.

(http://bestsmileys.com/smoking/6.gif)

ok then. fuck the limit. this is still a donkish push.

by doing this we're basically saying 'yknow what i'm not good enough to win this thing by playing my normal game so i'm gonna go ahead and gamble first level with ace high HOPING to get a coinflop (which is what we're getting at the very best) because i'm just that unconfident in my ability to outplay the table over all the hands that could be played throughout the tournament.'

that sound like the mentality of a winning player?

Worked for Jamie Gold

Nah, your right. Winning players should be able to consistently outplay the opposition in situations where you start with 75BB stacks and the blinds go up at regular intervals. Gambling is baaaaaad.

This really is a clear fold.

Due to the payout structure which is quite flat and pays in this case something to 66% of the field and a clear profit to 22% of the field, getting it in even as 60/40 favourite (against a range as obv ak is not a 60% over any hand) is a bad idea.

If you have like myself in the past immersed myself in learning ICM, equity decisions in sngs are often extremely counter intituative. As survival for the most part is key over gaining chips.

Why do you think top live MTT pros (Allen (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=462) Cunningham (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=462), Barry (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=478) Greenstein (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=478), Daniel (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=515) Negreanu (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=515) etc) get totally owned in high stakes sngs as everything they have learnt doesn't apply to sngs and gaining chips early is something that should be only done with minimum risk.

Seriously anyone advocating getting it in here, has little to no knowledge/experience of proper sng theory.

Fwiw I only get it definitley in here with aa/kk. QQ is the only marginal hand to me and then I go with my reads.

Longy, he's currently in level 4 of the step system. As such, we should surely only be concerned with the top two places? Would you fold here in a regular Sng?

IMO these EPT steps (i presume its a turbo ? ) play completely differently to regular SnGos.  If it was a $215 buy in regular sng then i would lean towards a fold but as the majority of players have "stepped" to this level,the standard of play is not up to the usual "buy in " sng standard,indeed i have seen this kind of reraise with KQ,K J type hands. i'm not folding AK here.

* i have little experience of regular sng, but i do have some experience of step strategy

It's not a turbo at 215..or atleast the APPT one weren't anymore at that level

Lol Lloyd are you playing devils advocate here or trying to wind me up as your the last i expected come back with this response. Poker is about EV its not about zomg i have just made step 4 i have to gamble it up here to make the next level.

Once you have entered your buyin is gone and is converted into equity in chip, now all that counts is the payout and how we can best achieve the max expectation.

Unless opponent is known to raise with a massive range here and fold alot to a 3bet shove, passing is always the best option and yes i fold quickish in a reg sng.



They are just sngs with a different payout structure. The buyin is semi irrelevant and their range doesn't change enough, if you go and play the $16 turbos on stars (i have played circa 2000 post UIGEA but admittedly in late 06) and people are not getting it in here with kq for the most part.

of course, but the different payout structure enormously affects the ranges. For example, if it was winner take all, there would be no bubble pushbot play, there would be no "play tight early because 55% edge on our stack is still $ev due to payout" standards, chip values would be linear with chip stacks (ie double up stack = double up in equity), as a result the play would open up a lot more early, and it wouldn't be the same game with 4 or 3 left. I have no idea how these things payout, but saying its "just a sng with a different payout structure" is kinda strange, imo, because the payout structure is the main thing that effects the play in the sng.

I agree with you and in seperation that comment seems rather flippent. Yet i feel I have had outlined in earlier posts that this structure is even less linear than the standard 50/30/20. Thus making holding onto chips is even more important early relative to equity.

Totalise I take you fold here?

probably, I wonder how good/bad limping pre is as well, in this kinda sng

ignoring the maths side, from a phsycological point of view i can tell you that 95%+ of low limit players don't have the gumption to re raise with anything your ahead of here and 99% of decent players aren't raising with anything you can beat here either. I have a 22% roi in sngs over a sample of 3000+ and i am folding here everytime.

your out of position facing a re raise in level 1, fold ffs.

survival and fold equity are paramount and your offending them both here.

dang. busted. i've been levelling in this thread fwiw.