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after seeing rangers villareal, celtic milan, celtic barca, in the last 3 seasons its pretty obv that the last 16 in champs league is as good as it gets for scotlands big 2. so is it better to qualify for champs league, get paid etc, come third, and have a decent chance of getting somewhere in the uefa cup, or get pumped by the big boys in the main cup and the europen season is over.

for me i love the champs league. but the last 16 is just beyond the teams until they get an abramovic each. any thoughs

I don't think you need a Sugar Daddy to be able to compete in the CL.  Arsenal certainly don't have one and made the final a couple of years ago and regularly do fairly well (and underachieve imo).  As far as I'm aware Liverpool and Man United weren't owned by billionaires when they won it last either.

IMO, Celtic and Rangers aren't used to playing decent strength competition and it really doesn't do them any favours.

nothing to discuss, surely? I'm in the same boat supporting PSV (though we have been known to go past the last 16....well once in the past few years anyways but I'll take it)..going through is always preferred, 2nd to that is the UEFA cup....finishing last in the group is a disgrace for a half decent side.

I think the TV money available to the English clubs since the Sky/EPL linkup makes a lot of difference - and a Scots club would need a Sugar Daddy to make up that gap & to challenge for the signings of the next level of player. Even the CL money goes by potential home TV audience, meaning significantly less for a Scottish or Dutch club than the big 5 nations.

There's not much can be done about the strength of competition in the SPL (although I doubt it's as bad as it gets portrayed dahn sarf), which is why getting into CL/UEFA group stages is essential to continue to develop.

Why do the Scottish leagues have such few teams in them?

Not related of course, but I do wonder why they have 10-12 teams in the league but 4 divisions of them, surely the games in the 3rd division aren't much different to the games in the second (and the bottom of the Prem to the 1st div?)

A lot has come from greed. The smaller clubs in the SPL want 3/4 games against Celtic and Rangers to get the bigger crowds/TV money. Div 1 want to keep their bigger games etc etc.

TBH there's too many teams in proportion to population - but try telling a Cowdenbeath or Berwick RAngers fan his team should fold.... As for the quality this is the first year that the top semi-pro (Junior) clubs have taken part in the early rounds of the Scottush Cup & they've shown what a lot of us thought - there's a higher quality of football in those leagues than in Div3 & quite a bit of Div2.

are all four top scottish divisions fully pro?

east stirling? berwick? for example

Part time, but classed as fully pro. If a player wants to drop down to the Junior leagues they need to apply to be made Semi-pro in the SFA's eyes. Not even all Div 1 clubs have fulltime players. One Senior club (Queen's Park are still amateur, and they own Hampden  :dontask:

There's better money for players in the Juniors in a lot of cases, and a lot of Junior clubs are far richer than the lower league Senior clubs..

Also the quality between the bottom of the SPL and top of 1st division isnt great like you say, but the gulf between say the top 4 teams in 1st division and the old firm is massive! and it would make the league less competitive in the sense that it "guarantees"(if there is such a thing) the old firm easy points a basically-games that you arent even worth playing!! it actually the reason I love the split format- I was sceptical at 1st but it makes the run in that wee bit more difficult and more exciting

Is the Scottish FA as stupid as the English FA?

Lots of protection of vested interests? resistance to change?

who holds the power in Scottish football? the big two or the FA?

yes, yes and the big two.

do most Scottish fans supporting a non top division team instinctively ally themselves to Celtic or Rangers? Is this taking place along religious or footballing lines?

for example I support Hamilton, or Dumbarton say.....will I have allegances in the big two, typically?

but if the other teams only played the Old Firm twice a season, some of them could pick up enough points to compete for the title.  Teams get to the European spots of the EPL without beating the top 4.  The top 4 in the EPL don't win against each of the lower teams all the time, points are dropped and it gives the likes of Wigan (last season) Portsmouth, Man City, everyone else a chance of doing well.

Lower number of teams restricts the competition and creates a bigger divide between the more wealthy teams and the the rest of the league.

The SFA is made up of chairmen from clubs - David Will from Brechin was high up in UEFA & making judgements on competitions his club would never get into.

A fair bit of power was wrested away by the SPL, but it's ended up with 2 groups of incompetent vested interests interested in trips to big games & the draw in Monaco instead of one - and very little help at a grassroots level for Scottish football (all IMHO obviously).

The Big 2 don't have that much power any more (look at the nominations for hosting UEFA finals - Hampden is the only nominee despite Ibrox being elligible longest and Celtic Park being bigger, as the SFA wants the money, another example is the refusal to allow a winter break despite the big 2 wanting it).

Some do, there are '2 team supporters' my mate takes his boy to watch Queen's Park regularly but they're both Celtic fans - and some teams (Airdrie-Rangers, Albion Rovers-Celtic) have more obvious connections, but there has been a backlash against the Celtic & Rangers attempts to join the EPL & the monumental fuckup over the Sky/Setatnta TV deals and a lot of the fans of other clubs are automatically against the big 2.

I agree, but a lot of the smaller clubs have grounds incapable of handling Celtic/Rangers crowds, witness the scramble for tickets to Inverness/Falkirk, because the grounds are so small.

Yes it does happen and its quite sad to see to be honest- I like the idea of supporting your local team but its probably only natural that your going to want to see teams like Barca etc and are going to want to watch better football IMO

and things have changed within the SPL.... The big 2 do have more power but obviously they are going to look after their own interests... but to be honest since the SPL broke away from the SFA it has benefited all teams in the scottish top division. There is much more revenue being created and although rangers are celtic are getting a bigger slice-there is a bigger pie because the SFA dont get to chose how big that pie is.

I actually quite like the structure of the leagues in England... its all a pyramid system linked to the premiership so you've always got something to aim for to keep trying to move up the leagues

is there a route for young talent to start out in the lower leagues and get picked up by the SPL clubs?

or is it like England where the lower league English player prices are poor value compared to continental player prices?

whats the U21 Scottish set up like for example?

talent coming through or is it, as in England, blocked by non Scots in the big 4-6 teams?

To be honest a lot of the young talent is coming straight through the SPL clubs. The smaller teams have realised they need to bring on young players & when they look abroad it is a case of looking for someone with ability struggling to make a breakthrough or someone who was good and may benefit from another chance. A worrying trend though is the on loan players from the EPL who get blooded in Scotland and then move back south - they don't add anything in the long term, only get the chance to play first team football earlier.

Even the big 2 are investing a lot in bringing through their own players, from Scotland/Ireland and further abroad (Celtic paid £150k for a Romainian 15/16 year old last week, and will put him stright into the training academy).

sorry guys, anorak afternoon here

How do the loads of Glasgow clubs living in the shadows of Cletic and Rangers survive?

I have a good friend, living in London, who is a Partick fan. travels up for every home game. He's passionate but I don't hear of a lot of non big 2 other glasgow club supporting fans

but there's St Mirren, Morton, Clyde, Clydebank  and close by Hamilton, Motherwell etc etc

are they all funded by directors that keep them afloat or do they earn enough to survive?

They've all come close to the wall at times AFAIK. Clydebank are now a Junior team after going out of business.

Partick did some clever work with selling ground at the stadium to developers, this has kept them going.

I'm not sure how the rest do it TBH - although Clyde have done good things with bringing kids through.

Morton was struggling for ages..went into admin I believe untill they got bought over.

Young talent is getting moire of an opportunity due to the majority of clubs being skint and unable to afford to bring in players from abroad.  whether that talent is any good is debatable.

As for players coming through from the lower leagues..basically it doesn't happen most youngsters are picked up by SPL clubs and very few slip through the net.

so give me a rough equivalent then

Scottish Div 1 = English Division 1?

Div 2 = Conference?

Div 3 = Proper Non League ?

or do I do Scottish football a disservice here?


Gretna (albeit bankrolled) went from the Unibond to Div 1 and seem to have hit the ceiling at the bottom of the SPL.

or is it unfair to try to compare?

They barely stay afloat.  A few years back many came close to going to the wall (Clydebank and Airdrie did - Airdrie were reinvented as Airdrie UTD), this seems to have shocked the others to get their business in orderand they try and cut their cloth accordlingly.  There have been Owners who have come in and tried to pump money in to buy success eg Boyle at Motherwell and the Marrs at Dundee.  They had wild ideas of challenging the Old Firm however it didn'tquite go to plan and both went into administration.  

lol, I think your doing the english div 1 injustice... I really dont think you can compare- there is so much money in english football that it makes it impossible to compare- look at peteborough signing guys from juniors for £420k- it really is incomparable

Its a tough one and probably difficult to try and compare.  Division 1 would probably be somewhere between League 1 and League 2.  Divisions 2 and 3 would be non-league

You're not far off IMO. I always compare the Dutch 1st division (or whatever they call it these days..the one below our Eredivisie anyways) with English div1 footie and Scottish div1/bottom of the SPL. The Championship in England is of a much higher standard than the Scottish div1. The main reason for this is the level of support a Championship club gets.

I reckon a club like Gretna would struggle to make an impact in the Championship..the same would go for Kilmarnock and clubs like that. The bottom half of the SPL would be mid-division at best in the English Championship. (The same goes for the bottom teams in the Dutch eredivisie)

I think in a lot of cases you're complimenting lower league Scottish football :( . As a %age of population Scotland has the highest amount of atttendees at football, but in real terms the msmaller teams don't get the punters through the gate.

Gretna did a Wimbledon (but lost the SFA cup final) - but the descent will be quick. The promotion last year has hurt them I think - as their ground needed improvements and they're making very little money by groundsharing 60-70 miles up the M74. It shows the small minded nature of Scottish Football that Queen of the South (nearest to Gretna) refused to allow them to ground share even though Gretna would have funded improvements to their ground.

Rod, Bazzaboy, Hairydude, Fregus, Teacake, Bandit and the rest

who is your 2nd favourite Scottish team and why?


is there any interest in the ROI leagues up there?

Don't really care - I look out for Kilmarnock and Clyde's results because my Dad played for them - but actively dislike Killie for recent games & their management. Kind of like Clyde to do well as I've some friends who support them.

Closest to supporting another Scottish team would be supporting Auchinleck Talbot in the Juniors - that's great fun and the most violent football I've seen ;D

Don't know much about ROI football, actively look out for Villareal in La Liga and St Pauli in the German 2nd division due to previous football trips and friendships.

I don't have one personally, I just dislike some more than others.  I have a couple of mates who do and basically location is the reason behind their choice eg one is from Hamilton and looks out for their result and goes to see them if their fixtures don't clash with Rangers.

scottish football is also on the whole unpalletable

i liked motherwell a lot on helicopter sunday

Not a lot to add as most has already been covered.

My other team when I was younger was Clyde as my uncle worked for them & I used to go & watch them if I wasn't at the Celtic game. Couldn't care less about ROI league.

In England my team was Man Utd when I was a kid, (they were pretty much shite then) but realised you could only support one team when they stole Brian McClair for about 800k  ;grr;

I also went to St James Park quite a few times in the late 80s, early 90s but really am ambivalent to the EPL nowadays.

Did anyone watch the NI Prem game that was on the Sky the other day?   There's bigger crowds at Bracknell Town's games.  I'm amazed these clubs survive.

Been in my bed most of the day with the hangover from hell but I couldn't add much more to whats been said every question asked seems to have been answered.

As for a 2nd team anyone who beats the Orcs is fine by me  ;D ;D

I personally think a few ways to improve the Scottish game would be to have 2 divisions of 16 - get rid of a few clubs I know that sounds a bit harsh but there is no way places like Fife can sustain having so many clubs in the competitive leagues.

I'd also like to see us move towards playing summer football and I think clubs like Celtic/Rangers/Aberdeen who have a strong under 21 set up should be able to put their U21's into the second tier similar to the way they do it in Spain.

As for the OP - last 16 of the CL every single time

I mean Rangers managed to get pumped out CL despite getting 7 points from 3 games and looks like they will be going out the UEFA cup this evening.

Personally I think once you exit one European Competition that should be it there should be no safety net.

     Bandit, you've just bocked the Greeks. lol. I was @ Celtic park last night ----wonderful entertainment.

celtic reserves ;)

He's a good man that Mr Paradise  :)up

And Mr. Teacake  :)up




Are all you Celtic fans closet Clyde fans as well,

-we need all the fans we can get

As someone who has endured the lower divisions up here i'd say its more like

Scottish Div 1 = English 2nd Division

Scottish Div 2 + 3 = Proper Non league ( with one or two exceptions)



You also tend not to get the same level of upsets by lower league teams  in our Cup competitions either - lucky if there are 1 or 2 a season in Scotland.

Although we did murder Celtic in the Scottish Cup a couple of seasons back  ;whistle;  ( had to get that in there  :D)

Were you in section 412? I thought I saw you, but it was that noisy you couldn't hear me shouting to you.

Any Bhoys who don't have this season home shirt yet; Kitbag are selling the Celtic home shirt for £9.99.