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Inspired by last post on greatest sportsman...

So, best over jumps? best flat?

I'll start...

Jumps...I'll go with Red Rum for his Grand National exploits, but some would probably point to Arkle...

Flat...I like Sea Biscuits story; there may be others with better records, but I'll go with Rock of Gibraltar (probably biased as he made me quite a few quid)...

Flat; Rock of Gibraltar was spookily good. Persian Punch still my favourite though.

Jumps; I think we're very lucky that Kauto is running at the moment. If he wins the Gold Cup easily again he gets my vote....Arkle was better than Red Rum in the same way that Rock Of Gibraltar was better than Persian Punch.
Over hurdles you have to go some way back to find anything better than Istabraq.

i think ive got to go with arkle as well, thought red rum was a brilliant handicapper and saw him win 2 of his nationals but only backed him when he lost twice,lol
flat is a hard 1 thought brigadeer gerard was pure class and only defeat was down to ground  but Nijinsky has to get my vote.

Tiger Woods.

he would probably start red hot fav for the national as well he is fav for everything else he goes in for

this is alot easier than the other best of forums.

flat:dancing brave the greatest horse that ever lived and never won a derby (jockeys fault bloody starkey!)

jumps: a little tougher but i think it has to be arkle

dancing braves greatest performance

the arc de triomphe in 1986

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=sQGDJeTuelA

Hi Lee,

Red Rum? You jest, with respect. Red Rum was a handicapper, & a very fine handicapper, too, but as a high-class Chaser, well, handicappers don't merit a mention.

when redrum won his first national in 73 he was getting over 2 stone from the 2nd "crisp" and only just beat him.

knowing what redrum done in future nationals it highlights what a great performance "crisp" put up that day.

ive said the same thing for years ,i always feel for crisp every time i see that replay

yep a great weight carrying performance that just told up the run in.

chosir

I need time to think about Lee's questions, & these things are totally subjective, &, given the nature of Horse-Racing (or Greyhounds) nobody can ever know for sure.

But as to the best Flat Race horse - ever, ever, ever - there surely can only be one nominee - Sceptre.

Sceptre was owned by a delinquent & crooked gambler, Bob Sievier, & I have an original signed copy of his autobiography - worth a few bob! - plus several other books about the extraordinary life & times of the Turf's greatest ever character.

Sievier came to own Sceptre by foul & odd means, and as he had a bad gambling problem, he ran the Filly almost non-stop, as a gambling medium. He paid 10,000 guineas for her.

As a 2yo, she won the Woocote Stakes,  July Stakes & Champagne Stakes.

As a 3yo - just try & imgaine this record - it's never been equalled, & never will, but she  - yes, SHE - won FOUR Classics in a single year; 2,000 Guineas, 2 days later the 1,000 Guineas, she then had a problem in the Epsom Derby (4th) before winning the Oaks two days later, followed by the St Leger. In the SAME season, she also won the St James Palace Stakes, & the Nassau Stakes. And - horserace followers, prepare to gasp - this 4 time Classic Winner ran her first race of the Season in what race? Don't even try guessing - it was the season opener, in March, the Lincolnshire Handicap, in which she finished 2nd. I'm not at home, so don't have my reference books to hand, but I believe she ran 23 times as a 3 year-old. And Sievier removed her from the yard of the Trainer Morton, because he felt she was not being galloped sufficiently........

She ran TWICE at the Newmarket July Meeting, twice at the Derby Meeting, twice at the Goodwood meeting, twice at the St Leger Meeting, & twice at Royal Ascot. All in her 3 year-old season. Oh, & just to keep her interested, she went across to Paris - also as a 3yo - to run in the Grand Prix de Paris, & remember getting a horse to & from Paris (from Newmarket) in those days was pretty gruelling.

She was bred by the Duke of Westminster, & her breeding says it all. Her sire was Persimmon, by the great St Simon, & although her Dam - "Ornament" - was of no great merit, not even any black-type, her damsire was none other than Bend Or.

Get a book about Bob Seivier, &/or Sceptre, & sit down & enjoy a stonking read. It don't get any better.

Sievier died a pauper, & was in & out of prison most of his life, was charged with murder in South Africa, & spent his last years in prison in Australia, after a betting scandal. His courtroom appearances in the UK, usually v a member of the Aristocracy, after gambling disputes, often associated with billiards, are legendary.

I put Sceptre ebove even the legendary Eclipse, after whom the expression "Eclipse - First, the rest - nowhere" was coined.

sounds an amazing horse and a fantastic story which era tony?

must try find a book on the matter

1902 I believe.

Look for "Bob Sievier" (sp?), or "Sceptre". When I'm next home, (remind me please) I'll look out the title of Sievier's Autobiography, but it'll be out of print now, for sure, it was written in about 1910.

Try starting with info on "Sceptre".

The Coup by trainer /gambler ken payne opened my eyes to racing,ive still got a copy today ,
well worth the read

I think you mean trainer/gambler/cheat......

Spiffing read, though!

I find it too difficult/subjective to pick the best in horse racing terms.

So my favourites:

First chaser I loved was Door Latch. Overtaken of course by Dessie.......

...which ultimately led to my favourite hurdler being Muse for entirely personal reasons - a bit of him was mine from the end of his 3YO career until he retired when he did his tendon for the second time.

I love the stayers on the flat so Persian Punch was a favourite.

Mr Ed and Champion

Haven't seen that many but I saw Rock of Gibralter a couple of times and he was amazing, a real whoosh horse and a joy to watch running so I'd go for him on flat.

Jumps, not sure, there's a few, but I like Kauto Star.

In my lifetime, Istabraq.

agree istabraq was a sensational horse and imo the best hurdler there ever was only stopped from a record 4th win in a row by the foot and mouth outbreak in 2001.
also see you then 10 years earlier won 3 in a row and also was a fantastic horse.

Lamtarra was my favourite flat horse ever, good story behind him aswell, still track record holder for epsom i think. Shame he only ran 4 races. There were some great horses around at that time.

I loved watching Nashwan, a huge bay colt

won the 2000 guines, the derby, the eclipse and the king george in the same season for Hern/Carson

Dancing brave was the most exhilarating I saw over a mile

a bit before my time, but Nijinsky I am told was the biz.

agree with you on both counts turny, dancing brave was awsome, i had a saver bet on sharastani at sixes i think, but i was still gutted when db lost, that race was very similar to the big one the rock lost over in the states!

Dayjur would have to be my pick for the best sprinter that i recall.

The Breeder's Cup sprint, where it was drawn on the extreme outside(like many fancied European horses have been) only to come with a storming run to win the race and then jumping a shadow on the track in the final 100 yards which caused him to lose in a photo.

Another stunning performance was that of Arazi in The Breeder's Cup Juvenile, where he came from the back of the field and what appeared to be a hopeless position, to weave his way through and win quite easily in the end.

But my all time favourite has to be One Man, the late Gordon Richards' "little rubber ball". Boy could he jump !