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150-300

Mad Turk, any two from any position, in cut off  15,000

Young lady, SB, passive nut peddler 9,000

You, BB 15,000  Qc 8h


Three to the flop after Mad Turk limp and blinds complete/check

Flop of  Jh 9c 7d is checked round

Turn  Ts to give you the straight on a rainbow board

You bet 700 into 900

Mad Turk makes it 1,400

SB calls

You? call with a view to value betting river but wondering about the SB call of a re-raise OOP

5,100 in the pot

River  4d, a blank


You see Mad Turk picking up chips, you check to let him make the action (possible check raise if SB passes)

He bets 4,000

SB insta calls 4,000 (very odd I thought at the time)

Should you with the second nuts be over-calling here?

Your ahead of the small blind obviously, who 95% of the time has an 8 here... With the extra chips she's put into the pot I think its more than worth a raise as you only lose to KQ. If turk has KQ very unlucky, if its justthe two of you in pot (SB folds pre) I could understand just a call...

which worse hands call?

nit alert here, I never considered raising here

 :D


yes sb has an 8 you would think

but if I raise no hand can call me except KQ right?

Surely the SB hasnt made a Barney Boatman style flat call with the nuts hoping for a raise behind?!  SB has KQ not realising she has the nuts?!


My intial reaction of raising was based on the fact that I dont think turk would min-raise the turn with the stone cold nuts

I don't know Turk..but his min raise on the turn into someone with Tighty's mage makes me think anything other than a flat call here bleeding chips. he could have KQ and played it nicely bu with SB calling I think you're getting value to just have a look here and call.


edit*...man that makes me sound weak passive.

If turk is capable of bluffing, you could min raise to give him the chance, but you have to risk all your chips.  I doubt the lady calls a raise as it just about puts her out of the comp. 

If you had the bare 8, would you consider a "bluff" allin?

Turk is a quality player. He is loose yes, but sharp with it....so I don't think you catch him picking up chips with the nuts before the action gets to him. YOU notice him doing this and decide to let him make the action. This would be bad play if he had K-Q so I don't think that fits. The young lady sb calls quickly because she has a hand good enough to call this bet but wants to get to showdown quickly and see.....because she doesn't have the absolutes. If you push she may call with a straight and I think Turk will fold.

fill us in Tighty...

If you want to know the result read the update thread..

Erm what im a missing here, how comes our chips aren't in the middle. The sb doesn't have kq here surely so we are only worried about mad turk right?

I would just shove looking to get a crying call from either with an 8, most likely from the sb.

Oh and never ever,ever pass.

my thoughts exactly, you got the chips in the middle, now you shove, really dont get this tighty. People call with 8's here. Chances of him having KQ<Chances of getting called by an 8=jam.

I have actually been on tilt all day after reading this post this afternoon.

To not jam this you have to put mad turk, a loose aggressive lunatic, on KQ. Does mad turk limp from the cutoff with KQ that often? Does he check a J9x board against 2 nits when its checked to him?

Just realised this is a windup.

WP Tighty.

lol yeah my chips would be in asap... tighty is one of the only players who wouldnt go broke here, and i dont think that is necessarily good!

From reading the updates i believe Mad Turk actually had KQ and Tighty just flat called the river.

I couldnt find it on the updates, what did SB have?   ;carlocitrone;

WTF AT THIS THREAD.

the 8

and turk had KQ?

I very nearly passed

Off to take up Bingo

yes

SOUNDS LIKE NITTING IS MORE YOUR SCENE.

Hey, thats enough please (funny though!)

I got the point on the previous page.

I'm beyond getting too riled by this sort of stuff but I know that seeing posts like that puts many many people off from posting on PHA.

Bless their poor and delicate little souls.

As someone far more intelligent that me once said  'If you resort to that kind of mentality when discussing hand histories then you seriously over rate yourself'

Huhwah? I just call it as I see it and give the best advice I'm capable of. This is a thread in which we are somehow not all - in with the second nuts againt a dude who is hyper lag and called "MAD" and a novice on a board where a lone 8 can be way overvalued. Why should I post in some sort of way as to make people comfortable?

But this forum prolly would prefer if I responded to Tighty saying something like:

"Well Tighty mate, I think this is a tough spot and it's great that you went with your gut instinct and was right. Cracking read to put the Turk on the stone cold nuts. You should be proud of the result of this hand and unlucky in the comp overall. Mate."

Meh.

well done, thats how easy it is to be civil.

Civil and completely unhelpful. I guess that's what people actually want from this HA board.

Lloyd I think you appear to be missing the (I assume) point of the post, it is not whether Mad Turk has the nuts - its whether him or the lady are going to get knocked out/crippled with a bare 8.  I think you are greatly underestimating your opponents if you think they give up their seats in live comps this easily.

Do you play live tournaments? People play really terribly in them. Given the description of this guy he can easily have an 8 / stupid bluff and she might have a set or two pair. Seriously.

Oh dear.

Just because ppl have a first name of "Mad" it doesn't mean they are stupid.

Llloyd, thats why you shouldnt make silly rash and disrespectful posts, you are now saying you dont even know who Turk is and have decided he isnt very good because he has the nickname mad, how would you ever know this if you were playing in the hand?

It really is this simple. 90% of the time, if a live player has a reputation for some sort of LAG and agressive game he is actually just spewy, loose and bad.

And, in any case, we start the hand with 50BBs and aren't on a paybubble. You could substitute Flushy or Jen Mason instead of someone called "Mad Turk" as the villian in this hand and I would reccomend never folding the second nuts and finding a way to be arrrrrr iiiiin at some point on this board.

See my post above. To be profitable in tournaments you need to make them much simpler than you guys seem to think. You try to play well; get the money in when it should be in (i.e. this sort of hand); analyse and review afterwards; play as much as possible; and play your most determined and focused on the occassions you get to the endgame. Do that, and you'll get your share of rungood often enough to make money.

FOLDING THE SECOND NUTS HERE IS NOT PROFITABLE.

thats fair enough and I  agree with you about the hand but why didnt you just post that in the first place?

Because it is difficult for me to describe how life tilting I find the posts on page one of this thread and the way in which you guys post hands you lose with the mentallity of:

"Did I do the right thing. I played it ok, right?"

rather than:

"This is a tough spot that genuinely stumped me and I feel there is merit to a few different lines. Can you please comment and help me improve?"

Added to the former motivation behind original posts is everyone's desire to be supportive and to be allowed their little speak. It should be ok to say: "That's bollocks, heres why". And it shouldn't be ok to post fundamentally incorrect advice no matter how nice the delivery.

Dino1980's threads are a good example of what posts on here should be like imo.

The answer is probably me not logging on to this forum ever tbh.

OI! How will I ever get into the mind of you lagtards if you stop posting?

lol, 'you guys' does that mean me in particular.? I reckon I have about 5 posts in 2 years. It kinda intimates that 'you' are not the same as the others that psot. A kind if rather dismissive phrase I would say.

Again I agree with you, why didnt you post that in the first place then??

I like reading the tough love.

"You guys" just mean the majority of people around here you like to heckle me and Flushy because we make 'rash and disrespectful' posts or whatever.

And I have posted the above in one form or another on numerous previous occassions.

ldsjkhfskkhfaskjhfkjhfk
udfuydhgddhidishbsbsks

sjfdjs;fda'PKFK';LJFEDGFKDJKGHKD

I'm actually a nit. No joke.

'I' woudnt dream of heckling either you or Flushy, You have pretty much got the hand nailed and I think you are one of the better analyst's on the HA board, you seem to be making some assumptions based on nothing, all you have to do is post on the hand as you see it, why the need for the incredibly rude OP?

Its because, as I said earlier, and you have later proven that some people think their view is superior to the 'others'

Obv Tighty knows this LL. I think he was just trying to work out if raising was more profitable as it (usually) only gets called by KQ (in a strong game).


p.s Brackets added to sit on the fench "switzerland" stylee, im a drinker, not a fighter.

sal;kdhflkHADFKAHkshjdfkshjfdkhsakdsalkjdlajdlja

;LSKDJAKASLDJFKSADFHJSFKSJNFKSJKLDFJALSKDLADJDKI

AS;DOIASDJASOIDJKLADJALDJLKASJDLKAurghsgsjdhgruehgbdsh

EVERYONE'S OPINION IS NOT EQUALLY VALID. THERE IS A RIGHT OR WRONG ANSWER A LOT OF THE TIME.

I was gonna say, he is a nit boldie.

You are right but this wasnt one of those occasions. I'm not sure about the rest of your post, it looks like you are that annoyed that anyone dare to challenge your opinion that you have just typed a load of letters in a kinda mad rant or maybe you are having keyboard trouble.

Oh dear!

the original point of the post was not, as I like to joke at my own expense, that I might nearly pass

it was this..if I raise here, what hand I am beating calls me?

several people make the point that raising here I get called by bare 8's, allowing for a mega-LAG in the hand and a nut peddler too.

Thank you, thats what I was after. In addition I hoped (after my OP) for people to suggest different ways of playing the turn.

At the time, after the river and it came back to me, I thought I was only getting called by KQ if I raised. Therefore I called. The majority opinion is that this is sub-optimal

which is kind of the point of asking for opinions, to try to improve






 

I think most people got that Rich.

This situation is very player dependant. From my limited experience of Mad Turk he doesnt limp very often in LP and is very unlikely to do so with KQ. Obv if you are playing quality players you only ever call on the riv Rich. Cooler imo.

If that's the case then you shouldn't raise with KQ either as its just a split pot, in fact raising with Q8 makes more sense as you get another Q8 to fold..........