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Title: (another) is the hand dead Post by: 350z on March 06, 2008, 01:50:57 PM I was in a tournament a while ago at a casino, it was only the second time i had played live in a casino and i made a major mistake and had a big chunk of my stack taken from me can you tell me if this was the correct decision. I thought i was on the button, when infact i wasnt on the button because the dealer had not moved the button on and i basically wasnt paying attention, it got folded round to me and i had AJ so i raise as you would on the button, now this is where the prob starts 1st to my left small blind (in my head because i thought i was on the button) small blind folds and then to his left big blind folds so i thought i had won the pot and that was that so i stupidly turned my cards over when infact the big blind was still in obviously because i was on the cut off and not the button, now the big blind instantly says my hand is dead and he wins the pot without even having to show his hand is this true?? and by the way this was a self dealt table so no proper dealer too ask as such, i asked a few of the other guys on the table and they werent sure so i just lost like half my stack like that, so was this the correct decision or not.
Title: Re: (another) is the hand dead Post by: Graham C on March 06, 2008, 01:54:39 PM I don't think that is correct, but I may be wrong. He'll just know what you have now.
Why did you show anyway? Shouldn't give out free info like that imo. Title: Re: (another) is the hand dead Post by: 350z on March 06, 2008, 01:57:09 PM not sure why i showed i had a stupid habbit of doing it then when i 1st started playing, i dont do it now after that.
Title: Re: (another) is the hand dead Post by: boldie on March 06, 2008, 01:59:42 PM he's right. your hand is dead. An expensive lesson that shows you always have to pay attention.
Title: Re: (another) is the hand dead Post by: 350z on March 06, 2008, 02:02:57 PM i just found it a strange decision, i would have thought he should still have to make a decision himself he has seen my cards and could decide weather to play or not, not just automatically take half my stack like that.
Title: Re: (another) is the hand dead Post by: I KNOW IT on March 06, 2008, 02:06:25 PM The guy was just angle shooting.
This is where common sense has to prevail. If it was deemed accidental it should have been allowed to play out, after the hand you should have been warned with or given a time penalty . Your hand should not have been killed if it wasnt deliberate. Even if it is a self dealt game in a casino surely there is some sort of floorperson to hand? Title: Re: (another) is the hand dead Post by: doubleup on March 06, 2008, 02:07:15 PM he's right. your hand is dead. An expensive lesson that shows you always have to pay attention. Some places have this as a rule some don't - quite a few reputable cardrooms generally don't. Personally I wouldn't behave as the bb did in this hand. There are a fair amount of scummy ppl about uk cardrooms imo. Title: Re: (another) is the hand dead Post by: 350z on March 06, 2008, 02:10:32 PM The guy was just angle shooting. This is where common sense has to prevail. If it was deemed accidental it should have been allowed to play out, after the hand you should have been warned with or given a time penalty . Your hand should not have been killed if it wasnt deliberate. excatly what i thought after it happened, but at the time with being a new player and only 2nd time in a casino i really didnt know what to do, basically i think he obviously spotted i was a new player and tryed it on and it worked. Title: Re: (another) is the hand dead Post by: boldie on March 06, 2008, 02:11:38 PM he's right. your hand is dead. An expensive lesson that shows you always have to pay attention. Some places have this as a rule some don't - quite a few reputable cardrooms generally don't. Personally I wouldn't behave as the bb did in this hand. There are a fair amount of scummy ppl about uk cardrooms imo. true that is the way most casinos see it. ..I would be more than happy for the hand to be played out..but unless the flop comes down AJX I'm going to win that hand when I know what your hand is. I do think that exposing your cards during a hand is a mortal sin IMO though and it should be declared dead. If you don't pay attention that's your own fault. Title: Re: (another) is the hand dead Post by: WarBwastard on March 06, 2008, 02:21:28 PM You said initially the dealer had not moved the button, but you also state it was self-dealt? If it was self-dealt and you were on the button you would have been dealing. Did you just forget you hadn't dealt the hand?
Title: Re: (another) is the hand dead Post by: 350z on March 06, 2008, 02:34:34 PM no i ment there was a dealer but he was also playing i ment there was no card room dealer.
Title: Re: (another) is the hand dead Post by: doubleup on March 06, 2008, 02:35:12 PM You said initially the dealer had not moved the button, but you also state it was self-dealt? If it was self-dealt and you were on the button you would have been dealing. Did you just forget you hadn't dealt the hand? self dealt in many establishments is players in turn volunteering to deal a few circuits and sitting in the dealers seat. Title: Re: (another) is the hand dead Post by: MANTIS01 on March 06, 2008, 02:35:25 PM The general rule is that you can no longer create action e.g. bet and raise...but you CAN call your oppos bets should you desire. Once again this changes from casino to casino. In self dealt tournaments just request a ruling from the TD if you are unsure.
Title: Re: (another) is the hand dead Post by: 350z on March 06, 2008, 02:37:30 PM You said initially the dealer had not moved the button, but you also state it was self-dealt? If it was self-dealt and you were on the button you would have been dealing. Did you just forget you hadn't dealt the hand? self dealt in many establishments is players in turn volunteering to deal and sitting in the dealers seat. no this was 1 player said he would deal so he dealt the entire time. Title: Re: (another) is the hand dead Post by: doubleup on March 06, 2008, 02:39:20 PM You said initially the dealer had not moved the button, but you also state it was self-dealt? If it was self-dealt and you were on the button you would have been dealing. Did you just forget you hadn't dealt the hand? self dealt in many establishments is players in turn volunteering to deal and sitting in the dealers seat. no this was 1 player said he would deal. lol just modified my post as I realised that it was riddled with ambiguity............... Title: Re: (another) is the hand dead Post by: turny on March 06, 2008, 02:40:47 PM The general rule is that you can no longer create action e.g. bet and raise...but you CAN call your oppos bets should you desire. Once again this changes from casino to casino. In self dealt tournaments just request a ruling from the TD if you are unsure. mantis isright here in most casinos. you cannot make action only call or fold from here on til the end of the hand Title: Re: (another) is the hand dead Post by: 350z on March 06, 2008, 02:47:58 PM The general rule is that you can no longer create action e.g. bet and raise...but you CAN call your oppos bets should you desire. Once again this changes from casino to casino. In self dealt tournaments just request a ruling from the TD if you are unsure. mantis isright here in most casinos. you cannot make action only call or fold from here on til the end of the hand thats what i thought at the time or thats what i would have liked to happen, i have to spoken to a couple of members on here about it at the time it happened and what i should have done is called the manager there and then, i will know for next somethin like this happens, i know 1 thing i want be showing my cards again in a casino you live and learn eh. Title: Re: (another) is the hand dead Post by: turny on March 06, 2008, 03:00:24 PM yep you sure do.
my first time in a casino was the old grossvenor luton and to cut a long story short i raised up with my AA and the person next to me folded her cards on top of mine! obviously i was distraught to be told my hand was dead but it was my own fault for not protecting my hand, luckily for me the nice people at the table let me take my raise back. nowdays my cards are always protected with a chip. Title: Re: (another) is the hand dead Post by: boldie on March 06, 2008, 03:05:19 PM yep you sure do. my first time in a casino was the old grossvenor luton and to cut a long story short i raised up with my AA and the person next to me folded her cards on top of mine! obviously i was distraught to be told my hand was dead but it was my own fault for not protecting my hand, luckily for me the nice people at the table let me take my raise back. nowdays my cards are always protected with a chip. that's why they have women's only tournaments these days. ;hide; ;scarymoment; Title: Re: (another) is the hand dead Post by: owen1923 on March 06, 2008, 03:53:01 PM The hand should never have been called dead.
Exposing your cards when heads up is not an offense in tournament poker, in fact some players do it to try to get a read on opponents when considering whether to call a big bet or not. The outcome should have been that you were no longer able to lead any action, only having the facility to call your opponents bets or fold. One day we will have a set of rules by which all cardrooms will abide, removing all the confusion which currently surrounds most of the day to day situations we find ourselves in when playing live. GL Title: Re: (another) is the hand dead Post by: turny on March 06, 2008, 03:54:17 PM One day we will have a set of rules by which all cardrooms will abide, removing all the confusion which currently surrounds most of the day to day situations we find ourselves in when playing live. GL [/quote] i wouldnt hold my breath if i were you! Title: Re: (another) is the hand dead Post by: dino1980 on March 06, 2008, 04:02:48 PM Mantis, ITB etc are correct. There was infact a hand that occured a bit like this in the recent GUKPT in Walsall - which i've cut and pasted below, original words by Floppy.
Okaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay, here's one to get your heads around. Dharminder Buttar button raises and Graham Clarkson says, "Call." But Buttar thinks he's said fold and turns over pocket Eights. A ruling is called for, and it's decided the hand can continue but, Buttar can only call from now on. Qh 7s 5d Graham bets 19k and Dharminder calls. 9d Graham now moves all-in and Dharminder quickly calls with the Eights. Graham flips Kd Qc but the river is the 6d . Graham sees it first and shouts, "Straight!" in pure disbelief, then shoves all his chips towards Buttar before leaving the table. Nik Persaud says, "I've not seen such magic since I went to see David Blaine...Other people know exactly what you have and yet you still win the pot!" Title: Re: (another) is the hand dead Post by: Royal Flush on March 06, 2008, 04:04:50 PM Mantis, ITB etc are correct. There was infact a hand that occured a bit like this in the recent GUKPT in Walsall - which i've cut and pasted below, original words by Floppy. Okaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay, here's one to get your heads around. Dharminder Buttar button raises and Graham (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=159) Clarkson (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=159) says, "Call." But Buttar thinks he's said fold and turns over pocket Eights. A ruling is called for, and it's decided the hand can continue but, Buttar can only call from now on. Qh 7s 5d Graham bets 19k and Dharminder calls. 9d Graham now moves all-in and Dharminder quickly calls with the Eights. Graham flips Kd Qc but the river is the 6d . Graham sees it first and shouts, "Straight!" in pure disbelief, then shoves all his chips towards Buttar before leaving the table. Nik (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=314) Persaud (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=314) says, "I've not seen such magic since I went to see David Blaine...Other people know exactly what you have and yet you still win the pot!" How bad is that turn Jam!!! Title: Re: (another) is the hand dead Post by: I KNOW IT on March 06, 2008, 04:05:37 PM Mantis, ITB etc are correct. There was infact a hand that occured a bit like this in the recent GUKPT in Walsall - which i've cut and pasted below, original words by Floppy. That rule is used in Grosvenors ,its not universalOkaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay, here's one to get your heads around. Dharminder Buttar button raises and Graham (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=159) Clarkson (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=159) says, "Call." But Buttar thinks he's said fold and turns over pocket Eights. A ruling is called for, and it's decided the hand can continue but, Buttar can only call from now on. Qh 7s 5d Graham bets 19k and Dharminder calls. 9d Graham now moves all-in and Dharminder quickly calls with the Eights. Graham flips Kd Qc but the river is the 6d . Graham sees it first and shouts, "Straight!" in pure disbelief, then shoves all his chips towards Buttar before leaving the table. Nik (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=314) Persaud (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=314) says, "I've not seen such magic since I went to see David Blaine...Other people know exactly what you have and yet you still win the pot!" The guy who deemed it dead is an angle shooter, nothing more. I bet he loves to pounce on the string bettors too Title: Re: (another) is the hand dead Post by: I KNOW IT on March 06, 2008, 04:10:38 PM Mantis, ITB etc are correct. There was infact a hand that occured a bit like this in the recent GUKPT in Walsall - which i've cut and pasted below, original words by Floppy. Okaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay, here's one to get your heads around. Dharminder Buttar button raises and Graham (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=159) Clarkson (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=159) says, "Call." But Buttar thinks he's said fold and turns over pocket Eights. A ruling is called for, and it's decided the hand can continue but, Buttar can only call from now on. Qh 7s 5d Graham bets 19k and Dharminder calls. 9d Graham now moves all-in and Dharminder quickly calls with the Eights. Graham flips Kd Qc but the river is the 6d . Graham sees it first and shouts, "Straight!" in pure disbelief, then shoves all his chips towards Buttar before leaving the table. Nik (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=314) Persaud (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=314) says, "I've not seen such magic since I went to see David Blaine...Other people know exactly what you have and yet you still win the pot!" How bad is that turn Jam!!! Title: Re: (another) is the hand dead Post by: Grier78 on March 06, 2008, 06:37:45 PM Just to be pedantic, if the guy who was on the BB was actually UTG then the fact that he still had cards meant that he might want to respond to your raise. Best thing to do is to keep your cards until either the dealer pushes you the pot or instructs you to show.
Title: Re: (another) is the hand dead Post by: TEX FITZ on March 07, 2008, 10:05:41 AM when you turned your cards over were they directly in front of you, or (like i see many times) FLIPPED them over to land face-up next to your chips - over the line. Then some would argue that you voluntary mucked your cards
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