blonde poker forum

just made final table of $14k on full tilt as chip leader wiv 140,000. after a few orbits im down to 115,000 and in 2nd place.

blinds are 1,500/3000. chip leader opens utg+1 for 7800. he has 125,000. after hardly any action for a while, im then really surpised to see it get called in 3 spots by a mid position player, cuttoff and button.
chip leader is a good, winning player and has reraised me off a few steal attempts

im in BB wiv  Ac Kc.

pot is 34,000

wot is ur move?

1st place pays $3,800
9th place pays $315

I think i would just shove. It may seem like slight overkill but it is definitley +ev and i don't really like the other options. 3 betting smaller leaves awkward stack sizes if called out of position with a hand that misses 2/3 of the time. Calling is just too weak for this hand.

Jam

what he said!

shove

what was the outcome of the hand then ??? i don't think i would've shoved myself as u would at least seem to be up against 10s or better and wouldn't want to be 5050 or more likely possibly dominated for my tournament life especially this deep

I agree ..I take the 34k in the middle and race against the one guy who wants to call.

Tough spot, i assume 10handed?

Its deffo +EV to shove, but are we nearly have deep enough to make a standard re-raise. I guess with 30k in the middle its prolly just a shove, but i want a better way of playing the hand. Any1 got any bright ideas?

9 handed on full tilt.

Definitely can't call. If you hit an ace or a king or even 2 pair you're still scared of trips with all those flat calls.

I'd be very tempted to shove but know that I'd need to hit so the fold would have to be considered. This may seem weak but do we need a 50 50 especially if it's against the chip leader who can send us out.

I suppose one possibility would be to raise it up to 30 to 40k and hope to lose the chip leader. at least then you know you're not going out no matter what (unless he calls!) After this raise you are unlikely to face anything other than all folds or a shove. You can then decide based on their stack what course of action to take. Also the CL would be very brave to bluff you here so you can be certain of what you're up against.

CL is next to act so if he shoves you can get away with 80k and a fighting chance. If he folds then wait and see who calls (if anyone) and decide whether it's worth the 50 50.

shove. get called by one of the mid position donk callers with 99. double up and go onto win. :)

A fold should NEVER be considered in this spot.  We have absolutely massive foldeq by shoving this hand, the CL will fold a tonne of his range, and as for the flat callers, they're just asking for their limps to be taken. 


3-betting to fold to the CL's shove is pointless, as by the time uv 3-bet to 40k theres 70K in there, and his shove will put like 200K in there and we have 70Kish back, nearly 3/1 to call for a probably 50/50 shot.

Get it in all day long.

Jam

thanks for ur responses guys. i did infact shove this hand. the CL took his whole time bank before calling wiv  Js Jh. his jacks held and i was absolutely gutted to go out 9th.

afterwards there were a few points me and my friends discussed.

- my shove screams AK. UpTheMariners actually phoned me to say  "u have AK dont u". the CL is probably fairly certain he is racing. with 3 other callers in the pot, it is very possible some of my outs are already gone, and he is willing to take this gamble in order to be in an extremely strong position to win the tournament.

- because of this, maybe a raise to 40-55k and then shove any flop makes my hand look stronger and makes it look more like i have KK or AA. i have 2 chances to win this hand. i either take it down preflop, or give him a very tough decision on the flop (which came queen high).

any views on this??

i dont think i made the wrong decision in shoving, as half the time i win. maybe this is just another approach i could take in the future

;iagree;
Most certainly looks like AK being such a big over raise.
. Would you shove with AA or KK in this spot? I see so many shove with AK online. Are people scared to play flops and choose instead to  race?
Personally Id prefer the above mentioned play of raise to 35k.  If he repops you then you can re evaluate. You will still have 80k with blinds at 1500 3000 if you fold or you can go with him. Im not saying you should fold but reraising to about 35k is going to give you a little more info before you commit your whole stack.  I suppose it amounts to how confident you are in your post flop play. I personally aint a fan of preflop coin flips when I have a stack still allowing a lot of play.Remember you said he was a decent player and he knows you can severly cripple him also, so its not going to be a straight forward reshove from him with out AA or KK
Why reduce your edge

Can we turn this hand around? You're CL and find pocket Jacks, and open up for 7800 from UTG..find a couple of limpers and then someone (2nd in chips and can cripple you) shoves 130k in the middle. You're a good winning player and you've stolen several pots off this player by re-raising him.
He shoves and you're playing for your tournament life.

do you make the call with your Jacks? what hand do you put him on?..Is it only AK that he would do this with on a FT of a tourney or is AK one of the better scenarios?

One of the things imo that makes Helmuth a great N/L tourny player apart from his great ability to read people is his perfect bet sizes. He gets all the desired  reactions or information with out pushing all his stack in

The hand im scared of in this scenario is QQ. I dont think he would do it with AA or KK. Why scare off utg raiser with a 15x reraise with AA or KK when I can hope to extract a lot more from him. AK is far more probable. I agree its big call with JJ but I dont think Im losing at this moment in time.
If AgentChip was ever going to get villain to fold I dont think he needed his whole stack to do it.

I couldn't call with Jacks in this spot. 2nd chip leader has re-raised an UTG raise all-in from the BB with 3 limpers, at best I'm against AK. If I've been pushing you around and playing well I could easily lay this down and wait for better spots, why risk your whole stack on JJ!! I think he's made a mistake here and there's nothing wrong with your push.

Another thought could be villian put AgentChip on a squeeze play after the 2 limpers have joined the party and thought his JJ were a clear favourite

Erm what postflop play? If you make it 35k and get one caller say. That is 81k in the pot with about the same back in effective stacks, no player in the world has any significant edge post flop here.

What do we do on all flops that miss us? Check give up, shove and prey. Any bet pot commits us. We deny ourselves the chance to see 5 cards which we get by shoving us. If the flop hits us we are unlikely to make more as a,k are scare cards.

I would shove with qq and jj here as well, if we are talking about balancing ranges.

I'm pretty sure id call with JJ in his spot, squeezing is so commen atm in poker that i wdnt be surprised to see 44+/AJ+ from the shover.

Unless the tbl is vvvv weak passive and i can just bleed every1.

i agree its a big call wiv JJ. i dont wanna give the impression the guy was outplaying me, we were involved in a few battles that went both ways. i think the guy viewed me as a good player and this was his opportunity to be rid of me and be in a monsterous position, so he took his opportunity.

someone mentioned why would i want to race for all my chips after getting this far. the truth is, i didnt want to race, but put the decision on the CL as to whether he wanted to race, and he accepted this offer.

i take ur point longy about making it 40k, then shoving the flop. like i said, i still think i made the right decision by pushing, just was wondering if the other option was a reasonable one to take

EERRMMM  The 35k gives us an option of winning the pot there and then vs .AJ low pp etc. It gives us a chance to find out where we are if he just calls or reshoves before we commit our whole stack. I know its good to see 5 cards with AK but Im not the greatest fan of pushing preflop with 115k at 1500 3000 blinds when Im sitting comfortable and feel I might have an edge over the table and get the job done a lot cheaper

Im not saying it was a mistake by the way, just offering a different view in playing it

 

This could be an option, if you've pushed someone about and they make a stand against you their range can significantly reduce, but as Chip's said he thinks the other player regards him as a sensible player he shouldn't put him on that wide a range here, especially being in a healthy chip position.

oh yeah, i forgot to mention, by making it 35-40k, wouldnt u agree it makes our hand look stonger??? makin it this amount, i believe, makes my hand look more like AA or KK. i think hes more likely to fold to a reraise to this amount rather then a shove


btw, the opponent is called twlaing. anyone played or heard of him?

Thats the point i was trying to make. why on earth would you shove with AA or KK here?  If I was VILLAIN only hand Ive got t be worried about is QQ
AK or squeeze play is far more probable

I didnt necessarily mean post flop on this hand, I mean Im confident on a whole with  my postflop play and decisions rather than preflop shoves. Especially when Im in a good position stackwise. Id rather try and find out where I am in a hand with a well sized reraise than shove and hope he folds, because hes unlikely to call 115k with a hand Im dominating

So your going to put a 1/3 of your stack in "to find out where you are". So once we reraise lets see what info we have.

Folds: We just made a range of hands fold that we are ahead of, but shoving achieves the same. So no differnce there.

Calls: Only the chipleader is going to flat here really, so we have know find out where we are haven't we. Whats his calling range here? Any ideas cos i don't. Then we have to play the flop oop with no room for manouevre. Shoving avoids all this and i think you agree that while you may be better than most postflop, you have no real significant edge over any play this deep post flop.

Shoves: We fold right cos we must be beat? Err no lets say he only shove with ak qq+, which is realistic but super tight. We are getting laid close to 2 to 1. And have 39% equity against this range so have to call as folding is a mistake.

So only the middle option is where the difference lays and makes for tricky decisions which no matter how good you are postflop are tricky.

Shoving here is getting 2 answers. #1: Fold  #2 Called by a better Hand unless its AK also
If you shove for that amount you are hoping for option 1 

This is against the only guy who can bust you who has raised UTG after being quiet for some time. I think that shows some sort of strength.

If you raise it up to 30k and he shoves for another 100k Id say  you are not winning at that point. Now you have to decide if you want to go on a coinflip at best( unlikely he would do this AQ or less ) or swallow and and keep yourself 85k and have confidence in your ability to come back as the blinds are relatively small, at least you have the option of which way to proceed in the hand this way
I repeat its very doubtful you are ahead if he shoves back at you
 
If its a hand you are dominating I would think you would take it there and then with the 30k raise, it doesnt take your whole stack to get the desired result

I also think it looks far stronger than a shove.

Also Im certainly not saying Im better than most at postflop play, but Im certainly not scared of playing flops
Thats one of the reasons I prefer live far more than online as I get a far better feel for it

I also understand mathmatics is an important factor but reading situations and good decision making is equally important

Theres a good argument for both plays as  described but its each to their own I suppose

This is only my take on an alternative way of playing the hand and my reasoning behind it.

dont we shove aa and kk here a lot too...i know it screams of AK, but thats not all villain should be concerned about.

Most players here would rarely shove such a big overraise with AA or KK . I think they would rather try and extract as many chips as possible with these holdings. Give him a chance to hang himself It does happen but its far more unlikely imo.

This is why it's such a beautiful game. You shove with ak wanting everyone to fold, you shove with aa wanting them to call. Unfortunately whichever reason you've shoved for you just know that the other guy's going to do exactly the opposite of what you want.

Shoving with AA / KK here would be good IMO. I'd be happy to take this nice sized pot but would also willingly take any callers money with a big smile on my face. If I shove with ak I'm panicking as the action is on every player hoping that they will fold just in case they've got me beat.

I much prefer the raise like I said previously to around 40k. I know that maybe gives decent pot odds to the limpers but it's still an extra 32k on top of what they've put in which would make a big difference to anyone's stack. You're telling the CL that you're serious here and that if he's not got a hand he'd best stay out of your way.  

If he pushes then just fold. It might sound silly but you've only got ace high! It's a good starting hand but it doesn't half need to hit to become anything other than trash!!

Against a smaller stack then yes of course you want to be all in. But in this situation you're second and have presumably worked hard to get there. Why blow the lot on ace high when there are likely to be many more opportunities that present themselves.

Another thing - I'll bet if you'd flat called one of the original limpers would have won the hand by pairing that queen or hitting a set. You might have even ended up chip leader yourself if the previous CL doubled someone up.

I'm not saying that I would flat call but at least if you hit no one's going to know it. Also if you miss you've got away cheap. Just another possible thought for people to analyse shoot down in flames  ;snoopy'sguns;

Silly me i didn't think of that, flat call, lose some chips but become CL, that's where i have been going wrong all these years! There was me thinking the idea was to win all the chips!

::)

lol

 ;D ;D ;D

It was just another thought to put on the table. I did say in an earlier post that I would NEVER flat call here.

My preferred opion is definitely the raise to 40k. Don't know what I'd do if he called though especially if he shoved as soon as he saw the flop. You've got to put yourself behind at that stage and you've just lost 1/3 of your stack to a possible bluff.

What was your preferred option Flushy?? The shove or the raise??

It's difficult to act out of turn online

Stop it FFS :D

My bad. It's been that long since this thread started I forgot the positions. Couldn't have picked a worse person to make that mistake with  ;D

So anyway Mr Flush..........

I genuinely value your opinion on this and I'm keen to learn what other people would do.

So what's your preferred option with AK in this situation. You don't seem to be a weak player from previous posts so I assume it's not fold or call? Would you see the all in as being weaker than a substantial raise or do you think that just invites the over the top all in?

Also with your playing style (assumed) would you want to raise to get rid of the limpers but call any all in. Maybe you would want to invite the all in with a raise with the intention being to instacall?

Would you want to push and maybe get rid of everybody. You might see the push as a missed opportunity to get more chips if they all fold.

Sorry if you're bored after 13000 posts but I'm just interested in what you think.

I wait patiently for your reply  ;popcorn;

Evil, dont take what Flushy says as a knock, he can appear a bit obnoxious but he's a nice fella. Your posts obviously show a lack of good strategic grounding, but hang around and the great RoyalFlush might let you in on the goodies.

Raise to 40k, snap-call shove.

Yeah the hand itself i am not a big fan of shoving as it does look like AK, i prefer the pot sized re-raise and call a shove.

I'm sure he is. Don't worry I don't take anything to heart when it's posted on a forum.

Yeah my strategy's not quite perfect yet. I've only been playing for about 5 months so I tend to play the tight patient game rather than get too creative. I keep putting the odd move in here and there though and it's getting better.

When I make a suggestion here it doesn't necessarily mean it's what I would do it's just an option that I'm interested to hear people's opinion of. I'm really not that bad...... honest ;whistle;

Anyway Mr Flush. Do you ever get your great self down to DTD? I'm there every Friday and the odd Sunday so let me know and we can have a beer before the tournament.

Cheers

PS. Sorry for the minor thread jack

Only been once for the opening £500, might sneak up soon though for a 3-2-1 thingy

It doesn't matter if your hand is face up here. A big pot has already been manufactured. Its like saying your worried you are playing quads face up when the pot is already £10,000 with 100-200 blinds.

Shove shove shove. Poor call from jacks as i possibly shove with QQ KK and AA. or 10 10 :D

I'll deffo be there. PM me and I'll have the beers waiting.

 :)