blonde poker forum

So ladies and gentlemen..help me out here

Its a final table bubble, and the BB with has a random hand

UTG pushes in for 3,000 with blinds at 600-1,200

Monster stack flat calls, sb passes and BB makes up with a medium stack, confident it seems that two players are seeing a dry side pot to the river  in most scenarios, and having a stab to burst the bubble  the BB checks in the dark

Nothing is said, but its one of those situations where tacitly you need a monster to bet, or a hand to protect to bet?

Monster pushes in

BB has hit bottom pair but has to fold

the flop is  4c 5h Td

Heads up the pusher has waited for  Kh Kd

Monster has  2h 2s

BB would have won the hand down the streets

Pushers doubles through plus a bit, bubble goes on for another level and a bit



Talk to me about the play of the gentleman with the twos.

Talk to me about checking it down, the ethics of it.

In what situations you bet into a dry side pot on the bubble, what you look to achieve ?

How much of "checking it down" should be tacit..what can be said? what can't be said? within a usual set of TD's rules


Thanks.

For me, the whole point of implicit collusion is about helping yourself.  If it doesn't benefit you, it's not in your interest to do it. 

In this case it would have been in the monster-stack's interest to check it down, which is what I'd have done.  As for what can be said - I'm no expert on this, but I guess nothing.  You shouldn't talk about the hand in progress.  But I'm sure a big smile and a loud 'check' will express your intentions fairly clearly.

why would the monster stack want the bubble to burst?

good point

so a big stack there is calling pre-flop to prolong the bubble?

Either he wants to win the pot, or prolong the bubble. He doesn't want a 3rd party to win.

I see.  So by keeping the bubble alive for a wee-while longer, the monster stack continues to benefit from the threat of knocking out any of the other players on the bubble, allowing him to rape and pillage.

Personally I don't like monster's play here.

If he wanted to isolate the ss to win the pot or prolong the bubble he could have stuck in a little raise pre and everyone would have run for the hills. But he doesn't do this....he calls instead. That's fine because monster calling the 3k may well encourage a multi-way pot and give him odds to catch a set. So a good situation. But when the flop comes down monster NOW decides to isolate?? Why? If he does catch his set on a certainly free turn and river I think this would be a good opportunity missed. I don't mind the theory of prolonging the bubble, it's a good one, but don't call to set mine and then abandon that plan on the flop for no apparant reason. Any reason that you have for betting others off the pot existed pre-flop so why change the tactic now?

Another contradiction is that monster doesn't want the bubble to burst because he is commanding respect at the table. A good situation that he wants to continue. Well he has just bolloxed his own image up by pushing with 2's....Well Done! The respect and fear goes with this play and now the other players are more inclined to play back rather than go away.

There needs to be some solid rhyme and reason to your play whatever you decide to do. In this example monster is confused.

i've seen a few people do this sort of thing, prolong the bubble? pah, they just didn't have a clue.

indeed that is ussually the case..VERY few players would do this to prolong the bubble.

I would bet into a dry side pot on the bubble if the chips in the middle meant my position in the tournament and thus my equity were greatly increased and if my hand reckoned to be the best right not but was vunerable to being outdrawn on future streets. E.G I hold A-10cc on a 10-7-5 two hearts flop.

one of the most important and least understood concepts of yawnament poker.

Prolonging the bubble as monster chip leader is definitley +ev and thats what i would do with ATC given the right circumstances. In this particularly hand I think the chip daddy should isolate preflop and not really care whether who wins or loses the hand if he isolates successfully.

Once he fails to isolate pre i think the bet is fine, for the same reasons as above and his hand is vunerable to being outdrawn by the bb.

Right Confession Time, for a couple of years after I started playing live, I understood the principle of tacit cooperation to try and eliminate an opponent, and in general if involved, was happy to cooperate to see everyone move up the ladder. Unless I had the absolute nutz I would happily check it down, and fold strong hands to an active opponent on the basis that he would only bet with the nutz.

However about 2 months ago that all changed with an incident on the bubble at my local casino.

60+ players down to 10, 9 for the final table 9 get paid.

I'm on the button with  6h  7h  all fold to me, I make it about 8k to go, blinds were 1000/2000, or there abouts, SB pushes for about 7k more BB calls, I call.

Flop K  high with nothing for me BB check  Me check.

Turn A check check

River  6s Ive made bottom pair nothing really but big blind dutifully checks, by this time we have got an audience from the other table all of whom are willing our small blind out of the tournament.

Now I had been chip leader on my table for a fair part of the night,  but had found it increasingly difficult to get any action on my stronger hands.  So I decided to do a little advertising here, I had the BB covered by about 4 - 1, so I put him all in, there were murmers of what is he doing, and comments to the fact that I must have at least a set. BB reluctantly passed showing KQ and we were on our backs

SB had pocket 8s so he comfortably survived, and the lad who was bb in that hand bubbled about 3 hands later.


MY POINT  This was not in my opinion a Novice play by myself, it was to send out the signal that this guy is weak and should not be allowed to bully with his chip stack. 

It worked as well, as the final table lasted less than 2 hours and I got many speculative calls into my stronger hands and won quite comfortably.

Passage of incorrect information is part of the game, and I took this chance to feed some out to the rest of the people who were going to be on the final table.

Although my reputation in that card room was shot to bits at the time

FT bubble means nothing to me unless the whole final table is getting paid

When i played the apat tournament in newcastle there was a guy all in then me and another guy was also in the hand. I had every intention of just checking it down as you do then made the nut flush on river was thinking whether there was any point in betting as i would obviously only bet with the nuts i bet a small amount to which i was shocked when the other guy re raised me all in and he showed two pair couldn't understand his play (the bloke is a really good player as well) when he didnt even have the flush.So many times see players bluffing when a guys all in in donkaments so annoying.

why is that annoying? I just fail to see that. If the situation is right for me you can be pretty damn sure I'll bluff you off a pot when someone else is all-in.

With no hand? Into a dry sidepot?

If I even remotely think it will do me good then yes. If for instance I find myself with AQ or AJ on a 467 flop and think I might still be ahead of all-in boy? I get my chips in when I think you'll fold because` "he needs a big hand to bet". If I think it's best for me to check it down then I do that.

In that case why not re-raise preflop to isolate and prevent the 3rd player even entering the pot with a chance to catch up?

To prolong the bubble id bet with 3 high into a dry pot.  If i have a decent stack size and the table is easy to mow over.

But if you kept calling players all in with 3 high to prolong the bubble ,you wouldnt have a big stack very long ;)

I have bet into a dry pot before to push out another player.

I dont care much if the short stack survives, what I care about is where the chips are going.

I would prefer them to go to a weak short stack player than I would a strong  opponent

I remember a comical time 3 handed in an MTT about 4 years ago.

I had about 70% of the chips with 1 guy having about 25% and the shortie on 5%. I kept passing in the BB when the SB shoved even though i was getting 2-1 with hands like AK! The other guy was folding both his BB and SB when i jammed. The shortie was folding as he knew he could get my BB every round as he was fairly decent and had clocked what was going on.

After about 15 minutes of play i had 90% of the chips in play!


Obv i still came 3rd and the original short stack won the comp, lol

pmsl

lol@still coming 3rd.

I heard something similar in the $200r on stars with 10 left. I cnt remember who it was but they folded QQ to a shorties shove coz he was pwning the bubble so hard.  He ran 100K into 250K without a showdown.