blonde poker forum

Before I start this bare in mind there will be a lot of disagreement and that we will have to do this in several parts from pre flop to flop to turn and for various hands in various positions.

Subsequent threads will be called Complex Hand Problem Pre-Flop with Position - Flop - Turn respectively.

So as Tikay asked here we go.........

Deep in a tournament with a 10 handed table with everyone at the table having plenty of chips (more specific details as the hand develops with regard to stack sizes)

Blinds are 1000/2000 with 300 Antes (6000 in pot for those bad at maths)

Early position limps for 2000, mid position calls for 2000 and you are in the cutt off seat with  7h 8s

What do you do?

Bear in mind I want everyones thinking on what they do and amount of raises/bets etc etc and I'll post my thoughts after we have had a few responses.
In fact I will move on to the next decision on a daily basis so this is going to take around 6 or 7 days to go through whist at the end of none of us are going to agree on the correct course of action..

BTW This is a real life situation that occurred recently to a friend and is interested in how everyone plays this as there is no clear agreement especially later on.

Hopefully it will be a good learning experience for us all.

There are too many unknowns here Harry for anyone to answer imo.

You need exact stack sizes, table images off limpers, yourself and the blinds still to act.

Cant see how anyone could answer without knowing these variables and more.

This is just the start of the problem after this I will move on to the button and his hand and then the sm blind and his hand and then go to the flop etc etc

Basically this is the first part and everyone is deep and all I need to know is if you call fold or raise at this point and why.

I think there is sufficient information here at this point and this is the easy bit trust me.

But if you know UTG only limps there with Aces or Kings you would never raise. Likewise if you know the sb, bb or button is crazy serial raiser of limpers, its doubtful you would limp. Similarly if the table thought you was a maniac a raise in position is surely more likely to get re-raised etc.

Agreed. All options are possible here, but it depends on the UTG player and the blinds for me.

Depends on the table and also how I am playing. If the table is fairly predictable and I can pick up a small pot with no hand I think this is a call.  7d  8h has good implied odds and in 2nd best position it is well worth taking a flop imo.
On an unpredictable table with strong players I like to keep my decisions to a minimum so I might throw this away and not allow myself to get out played post flop.
Personally I would more than likely limp unless like dubai said there is a serial raiser of limpers in which case I fold.
I think there is a case for all 3 options and I think they are all close in value might be wrong though.

For the sake of this I'd flat call, subject to the caveats already posted...hoping to hit a flop hard in position

If I thought button or blinds were serial raisers I would raise to get in first or if I knew that first two limpers were weak tight types I'd raise to try and pick up the pot there and then

I'll post my comments on the various scenarios and the next stage to the problem around 6-00pm every day but for the sake of those who need more info.........

You have just been moved to the table after a redraw and the only player you know is the sm blind who is someone whom you (in seat 7) have been teaching the game to for the last 9 months.

In the cut of seat (one off the button and seat 7) you hold 7h8s

Blinds and position of active players so far in the hand have already been described.

What do you do?

Maybe to start this going I should make a few comments now but would rather not as this is supposed to be a learning exercise and you have to make decisions based on limited and not complete information all the time.

Fold - even without knowing how many chips every player has or their table image. If i'm playing in a tournament and i have a decent stack size then there will be better opportunities to try and win chips than getting involved in a pot with 8-7 o/s

Thank you Harry...there's a fair few perfectionists here


I'm flat calling, though could argue for a raise...and let's see what happens in your next instalment.

Cheers

You are chip leader with 200k at the table in seat 7 whilst seat 8 (the button) has 52k and everyone else approx 150k

To repeat the blinds are 1000/2000 with a 300 ante at the table so there is 6000 in the pot before you start. By the time it gets to you there 10000 in the pot as two players have limped before you (one from early position (2-3) and one from mid position (4-6).

I would raise to 10k

Even with the extra info that Harry has just provided i'm still folding. There are two limpers in the pot both of whom could cripple me and the button is short stack of the table and could conceivably be in "double up-gamble" mode. I would pass and watch the rest of my new table to gain information, waiting for a better opportunity to get involved with my chips

You are chip leader?  :D

I'm raising to 10k.



 

you're only really hoping for two pair or a flopped str8, cards aren't suited - sure you'll not be given odds with two people to act before you if you have a two way draw on flop.  but then again, as you've just sat down as chip leader, you'd get a bit of respect and the limpers could lay down to a raise - maybe test the water with a raise to 8-10k.  depends on your style but personally i would'nt play unsuited connectors with three people still to act and two suspect limpers in early position....

I would raise to around 12k this play would.. or could

1 disgiuse my hand
2 Buy the button so i have position for the remaining streets
3 Give me more information about the makeup of the hands I was up against.
4 Give me extra ways to win the pot with future bets , regardless of the flop
5 Might get me the pot there and then

Alternatively fold no way I would call here with the chip lead.

Make a tickle raise, say 6k, get them calling then push them out on the flop given they put you on a hand. You also lose less this way if someone re-raises you.

shouldn't be a call anyway. either raise or fold. depends as a player how much you will pay for info on a player. one very well known tourny player recently that they would stake up to 90% of stack for info on a player. i think it's a bit extreme however the player in question's record cannot be faulted. you find nothing out by flat calling an unraised pot.

I like it when someone asks a question like this, you can gain so much information on players about their style of play without ever having to sit at the table with them.

My pencil has been sharpened ready for the blondite tourney in january so keep the answers coming.......  :D

no need to ask a question - I am happy to tell the world I am a lunatic. only too happy to raise any two cards.

funnily enough, I'm tighter than the brief and Adam combined

pencil away now monkey boy

Ahhhh yes mat . But if I know that you know and you know that i know what you know then where does that leave us?

whats that smell?

is it lamb?

is it pig?

No its bull*@#*......

Monkey can spot a bluff a mile away ;)

confused  ???

Yes but if i know that you know that i know that you could give false information then i also know that you could know that i know that i'm capable of knowing that you know that..

wait hang on........ if you know - i'll get back to you on that one.

For me calling isn't an option.

There aren't many flops you will like in a multi way pot with 7 8 off. The rounds are expensive (6k a round) and for me it's way past flat calling and seeing a lot of flops.

An argument could be made for a raise here as the 10k in the pot could probably be picked up with a 10 - 12k bet. It stands to reason that the first limper could have anything but if he's deep stacked it's likely he wants to see a few flops here with a range of hands. The second limper gives his hand strength away by flat calling, he has half a hand at best. The only worry for me is the blinds.

However, you cant be sure limper 1 doesn't have a big hand. You also cant be sure that the blinds behind dont have a hand to call with/reraise with. I would probably opt for patience here in that it's just slightly too risky. You have a lot of chips, you dont NEED to make moves, the structure appears to be slow as your whole table has chips. Wait for a better spot. Fold.

i'm definitely with the fold option.
I only know 1 player at the table.
I only have a bluffing hand.
the button could easily go allin after me (i can't call).
more importantly, i don't need to get involved at all.
Limping bleeds chips and raising can prompt a reraise from any other player in the pot.
NEXT!!

Thats the spirit everyone - now we can really get into the swing of things on this problem.

Remember there is no definitive answer and any answer/play could be the right or best one depending on your style of play and interpretation of how your rivals play.

Of course we would all like to know how each of the other players at the table are playing and how the table as a whole is playing at this time but alas we do not know and have to make the most of the info that we do have.

I believe that all three plays are possible but the kinds of things that we should be thinking about have already been mentioned.

Firstly there is 10k in the pot when it's your turn to act which means that you are getting pot odds at this time of 5/1 but the implied odds are more like 50/1+ from each of those already in so the call looks pretty easy. Unfortunately there are still three players to act behind you (button and blinds) and if any of them choose to raise you are surely going to have to fold your hand.

The problem is, however, if you play this hand at all then you are going to have to flop something pretty good otherwise you are going to be more or less forced to fold to any bet on the flop and as the overwhelming majority of the time you will flop nothing it can't be that much of a mistake to fold.

To raise in this spot could also have some merit but once again if you should find a hand behind you in the blinds or button (and there is no law that says nobody there can't have a big hand) then you are going to lose more than you would really want to with a mediocre poor drawing hand like 78 offsuit. Similarly one of the first two in (and particularly the first player) could be limping with a big hand just praying for a raise behind him so that they can re raise.

Bearing this in mind I really don't like the raise in this spot but know some who would put a raise in here with a view to dumping if reraised or proceeding with extreme caution if called unless flopping perfect. After all the early limpers probably have mediocre limping type hands (thats why they limped) so I must have some chance to pick up the 10k already in there and if all else fails I may yet take control of the button position and have best/last postion on any subsequent callers for the remaining betting rounds.

Because I am in late position and will most likey get to act last I have a strong tendancy towards calling followed by folding in this position with this hand because of he large implied odds. It is possible I can bust someone with a hand like mine whilst at the same time it is in theory easy for me to get away from my hand from the flop onwards so as long as I can see the flop cheaply (a mere 1% of my stack and less than 2% omf my opponents stacks) then I think this is the route I would take.

Let us not forget, however, that despite the relatively large implied odds there are also negative or reversed implied odds here as when you get to the flop and partially hit you may well lose more than your initial 2K investment as you are going to be in a world of hurt with an 8 or 7 high flop or hitting middle or bottom pair and this would argue well for the fold in this spot.

Having said that I slightly prefer my 87 to something like KT in this spot and lean towards a call but I'm not exactly excited about my hand.

Keep the posts coming and later on I'll add the next part of the hand.

you see I said call, then later I said raise .....


politician in the making me  :blonde:

Is your name Blunkett?

OK so I'll move onto the next stage as this thread seems to have gone quiet.

Good you flat called


what did the button and blinds do?

and then what flopped?

One step at a  time please as you are now going to be asked what to do in the small blind

See thread heading  Complex Hand Problem - Pre Flop - Small Blind

I am absolutely loving this but you are one big tease Harry.

bump

for someone who spends all day asleep in a chair you dont half manage to walk into a lot of things........

Matt, go have another banana

p.s I'm normally only expecting you to say "fold" anyway.

another?!?! darn not even had one yet, you wouldnt happen to have any lying around?

Just saw this one,

I really don't like early limpers. It says to me 'i wan't people in the pot' or 'i'm looking to reraise'.

Admittedly you could limp in but despite what harry just said i would just fold and wait for a better time.

Tickle raise looks good

Ha iso the limpers :)

Thread bumpage tickle reaches new levels.....

Aaah.. old school  :D

Oh my, great spot Craig!

tickle tickle tickle

tweenie clock, wherrrrrrrrre will it stop?

Thought tighty had bumped this at first