blonde poker forum

With the blinds at 1000/2000 with 300 antes and the early limper and mid position caller/limper you called in the cut off with 7h 8s which casued the button to also call.

Everyone has approx 120k/150k except seat 7 who has 200k and the button who has 50k left.

There is now 14000 in the pot and it is 1000 to you and you are in the small blind with 8h 4h and you have 130k stack size.

What do you do?

You are a player in the small blind who has been taking lessons from the cut off seat for the last 9 months on tournament no limit holdem and you are very conscious of what he will think of any play you make and thats why you know what these two are holding now (after the event) but not at the time. (Not that this will make much difference to your play I hope).

ok, I am going to start off with a controversial one


you can't fold being offered 15-1 in the SB

But you've got a bad hand, and perfect flop apart, you are out of position.

How about shoving in a raise of 15-20k to try and win it there and then.....the BB then passes and as long as you get past UTG the rest you think have marginal hands and are only calling because of odds

p.s If you see me doing this against you though, I've got a big pocket  pair (and that's what I'm representing here!!!)


p.p.s I'd actually call!!

Now I would probably call, I am getting great odds and the BB would need an absolute monster hand to raise here. I would be wary on the flop especially of the button because he may push in over the top of any flop bet because of his stack size. This makes the hand tougher to play because I will not know where I am and will need a very favourable flop to have any confidence but I do think you need to see a flop in this situation.

I like it Tighty but I think there are too many in for this play. Lets say you shove in a 20k raise and you get it through to the button who then pushes in for all his chips( 50,000) what then ? Can you fold here ? for just 30k more? the pot is offering almost 3-1 ( I think)

Jezza, I said I would actually call but

In the scenario you paint of my raise getting back to the button, why wouldn't he have pushed first time round in the hope of having enough "bluff equity" to pick up all the limpers before him?

I'm less worried about the button back raising me than I am the UTG.

I like tighty's play here. Yes it has risks but after the initial limper everyone has given their hand strength away (weak). One you get past BB and UTG limper you should be in the clear for a nice pot. If you get reraised by UTG you pass. If he calls you plan on cautiously. If he passes the chances are it's yours. With 3 potential players behind him your sandwich raise should work here unless he has a very big hand.

Make it 15k - 18k more to pick up a 14k pot.

Calling is ok too but bar flopping two pair, trips or a made flush I would get out. If you do flop a monster and UTG has limped with AA or KK you may be in for a payday!

I would raise though.

(IIRC it wasn't an UTG limper but 2nd position, but I still feel the same)

my bad, it's UTG+1.....The principle behind the raise from the SB still stands though

In practice, table image is important here...you want your foes to be thinking "he hasn't done that before, he's out of position against four of us, must be a monster"

At Harry's level they then think "but that's what he wants us to think...steal re-raise!"

Has the SB been at the table longer? Does he know anything pertinent about the other players?

Does he have the sort of image that would allow him to get away with such a raise?

I like the raise, although I may bottle it and only call.

This is true - I wouldn't make the move if I had been playing loose aggressive all day.

Wow, this is great stuff Mr D, I hope you know how much we appreciate it

Thanks

I'd pass as i know that one of my 8's is dead as i've already called with an 8 on the cut off........

Lol matt yeah, being dominated by yourself thats a new one.

I flat call here, the odds are massive to see a flop. The raise idea is very creative but if you get called you are going to give up the pot very easily if you don't hit as your oop.

an advantage of playing multiple accounts so i'm told.........

I'd still pass even without the insider knowledge of knowing what cards i've called with on the cut off and save the half a bet for the future. At the end of the day what kind of a flop do you want to see, if you hit a set you could conceivably be outkicked, if you hit a straight someone else could have a higher straight, if you hit the flush someone else could have the higher flush. The only safe flops are 888 (which we know isnt possible), 444 or 567hearts - and then you wont get paid off for your hand anyway.

Unfortunately you are looking at this from the standpoint of the cut off 7h 8s and only know about the sm blind because he is your student and despite this being after the event he has not told you about what the others have done to date at the table although it would be highly relevant here.

Passing becasue you NOW know an 8 is dead is not a valid reason here.

Play it as though you know absolutely nothing about the other holdings and players except for their stack sizes.

i know ;) thats why i elaborated on a proper reason in a later post :)

I don't think I could resist 15-1 odds in the SB so I would call.

I wouldn't like to raise with this without having a bit more information on the rest of the table.

yes but you know the button only has half a hand, because he's limped in position when small stack....he's raising with any decent pair, premium hand

so if you've raise you've only realistically got the UTG+1 to worry about...the rest, by limping, have given the strength of their hands away

Yes it has risks, but I like the raise to 20k here ( and I'm not a player who'd actually do it!!) , dumping if re-raised by UTG+1 and may be pushing on a favourable flop if its me and UTG+1 only post flop

How can you say you like it but you would never do it?

because I am braver when analysing.

It's not inconsistent.

so have you not reckognized a flaw in your own game? if you can analyse a hand one way but when it actually comes to acting it out why can you not have the courage of your convictions to go with your beliefs? if you believe certain moves will have a +ev in the long run then go for it if you believe that the same certain move has a -ev in the long run then you are right to pass.

Post edit comments: Apologies TE, i wrote this post just as i was finishing up at work and as i was driving home realised that it may have sounded overly critical of your game which is not how it was meant. As many people have probably read it i feel its probably wrong to just amend my original post and so i'll put my post edit comments underneath. All i was trying to understand is how you can be braver when posting on a forum but not at the table. when i sit at a tournament table i want to be playing my "a-game" which is the game that i believe will get me the highest possible place in the tourney. i'm constantly trying to come up with new ways of trying to stay one step ahead of my opponents, some work and some dont - the ones that do i try to keep in my armoury for future reference, the ones that dont work i learn from my mistakes and try not to repeat them.

If you believe that by making a move will be more profitable for you in the long run then give it a shot.

Very interesting stuff Harry, and a real pleasure to have you posting regularly.

I would be sneaking a glance to my left here to see if BB is looking twitchy.

All being well it's simply an auto-call for me.

Matt, no offence was taken

and you are right about my tournament game as it goes, one tries to play one's A game but I, personally, have to overcome an innate cautiousness. By and large I have done this, but a steal raise here from the SB...Honestly? I'm not there yet.....

I am not actually sure the steal raise there is +EV, but I suspect it might be...I certainly think if I hit a flop there after putting half a bet in, I would hate to play that hand out of position and think I might end up doing more chips as the hand develops than if I try an unconventional steal there and then

the alternAtive is fold, which I think given the odds you are offered is -EV.

I promise you all that this problem is not going to get any easier as this hand develop.

However by now you should all realize that the only hands you are going to be playing are the two already mentioned.

The 8h 4h in the sm blind and the 7h 8s in the cut off.

This small blind hand is similar to the cut off hand in some respects except that now you are getting greater immediate pot odds of 14/1 and even bigger implied odds and you only have the BB to act behind you before the flop. BUT you also have the disadvantage of being first to act from the flop onwards if you get to see it.

You should all of course be asking yourself too what the ideal flop for you would be with each of these hands and how likely you are to hit what you want bearing in mind the current odds and implied odds that you are getting from each position. Coupled with this you also need to be asking yourself what kinds of hands your opponents are holding but this will become more important when and if you get to see the flop as the big blind is yet to act after you not to mention the other players if you choose to raise.

NB Had you been holding 7 4 suited or otherwise and be called Brian Wilson the correct and CLEAR answer would be to go all in but then this is you and not Brian Wilson playing so you'll have to think of another way to play this;-)  and good luck tomorrow if you read this.

Ok, last edit:

RAISE = 18%
CALL =  80%
FOLD = 2%

This is why in both my posts i would opt to fold both hands, the only flops that could hit a hand like 84suited will either not give you any action or have you putting your chips in drawing dead. With the 8-7 o/s all i have in the pot is my ante and so apart from a 4-5-6 flop or hitting a house or quads no other flop will make me think i'm in front meaning i'm going to have to pass to any raise and wasted 2000 chips

If i only had the option to either call or raise with the 84 suited then i would raise in the hope that i would drive out all the other marginal hands like 8-9 so that if i were lucky enough to hit a good flop like 5-6-7 then chances are i'm going to get paid for it.

now i am not the best player by far, but given the 14k pot for 1k more i'm going to call, i like the idea of a pot size raise to try take it down there or thin the field, but the button may well dump it all in, he's gotta be looking to double through sometime. maybe a weak play for most of you guys but i can get away from it easy enough

I CALL

Raise to 50k

It don't think you can take this into consideration, like you state, as you don't know how good the teacher is, what he has been teaching the student, or whether or not he will try to fool him by playing in the opposite way to what he has taught.

Without reading the responses you've received so far, my play would be to flatcall.

I don't think you can pass any hand with those pot odds. Plus, your stack isn't short enough to worry about chucking in another 1k.

I don't think raising is a good idea. An early limper is not only dangerous because he could be trapping with a monster, but he could also hold a decent hand which would be worthy of at least a call even against a sizable raise. He'd then have position on you and potentially outplay you.

Also, the fella in seat 7 has a 200k stack so would be able to flatcall and bully you off the hand post-flop.

You may recieve two calls from these players, and then you be stuck in a weak postion with 84 suited. Not ideal in my opinion, especially considering your stack.

Let's not forget that the button could put you on the steal and push all-in. He may just want to gamble, but even then he's probably got you beat.

Finally, the big blind is yet to act. He may identify your move, he may hold a raising hand, he may also have a strong calling hand with better subsequent position.

You could make a monster of a raise, but would it be worth it? I don't think so.

Now i did think about this move but it's far too dangerous here, if the button has any kind of hand hes going to call and if the big stack moves all-in behind him your going to have to release 50k worse off. I'm not getting all my chips in with 8 4  soooooootted or not

i think this is spot on. if the early limper isnt holding a monster he will certianly be holding a fairly strong hand to play from this postion and i dont think putting 20k into a 14k pot is likely to stop him from at least calling.

i would flat call hit at 884 flop and win the hand  :D

This has been archived in the snoopy log and shall be quoted next time dan, ifm or any other of my railbirds  ::) mock my seemingly stupid, but secretly genius, moves.  :D

i did think about that when i was typing but for once snoop i agree with you. the worring thing is im actually thinking like you .

look out for my outragous moves in my next tourney :blonde:

I don't personally understand the pre occupation with the button coming after you. I think he is the least likely to come back over the top and the dangers have to be the first and possibly the second limpers (as well as the Big Blind) in this pot rather than seat 7 or the Button. The Button has enough chips to pass his hand and still have 50k left so i can't think why he would want to look up the small blind with any likely hand he s holding even if he suspects a steal from you. There was 12k in the pot when he called and if he had a rasing hand he would have done so then and is imo extremely unlikely to do it after the sb or anyone else for that matter given the opportunity puts in a raise.

Like i said i'm not the best player by far

 so if it's not the button then it could well be limper 1 or 2 that might be the big danger, a raise here is opening me up to all kinds of trouble, I will see the flop for 1k more, but i'm not putting my stack on the line with 8 4

please keep in mind ive only been playing poker for 10 months, so this is great stuff to me

Sincerest apologies as I did not mean to come across in such a dictatorial and cendescending manner. It's just I like to be opinionated when it comes to poker as I find it helps makes decisions simpler as the game is complex enough as it is.

In any event it's good to be decisive and have the courage of your convictions because this game is all about backing your judgement and the fact that you are worng from time to time is neither here nor there.

No need, i didnt take it the wrong way. I can see your a true gentlemen

ok, i call here, i cannot raise because it looks like i'm stealing from the button so some decent players will go allin with moderate holdings because of this.
the dangers are still the early limpers but i need to hit 2 pair or a pair with the flush draw.

Agreed. Except for UTG + 1 and the yet to act BB, I think all the other hand strengths have been given away.

Call.

all this is what I said, way back in the thread.   ;applause; to me


I raise, get called by the UTG+1 and the cut off...and we go to the flop three handed

Harry....what's next!

OK I think I'll move on to the next step in the thread:

Hand Analysis - The Flop - Small Blind

In reality you call from the small blind with your 8h 4h and the big blind checks whcih means that you are now 6 handed and there is 15k in the pot.

But first a few further comments on the small blind options pre flop.

In this kind of situation I tend to call regardless of what I am holding in the small blind but I still look in the hope that I am going to find a genuine raising hand. You may ask why it needs to be genuine and I would say that it is because I have the disadvantage of position if anyone should subsequently call me.

It is likely that the Big Blind is going to check once you've put the 1000 in and so as you are getting 14/1 and huge implied odds from the others it's worth taking the risk that you hit a miracle flop but BEWARE you really do need to hit perfect.

Personally I can't see the merit in raising here although you may well have a good stealing opportunity pure and simply because you have to respect the first and second players in the pot and there is still the Big Blind who may have a big hand but maybe the main advantage to raising here could be that you lose less in the long run. What can you possibly hope to flop with this kind of hand????? Really tough straight possibilities and the suited element is only worth a little because you have a few opponents. In essence you are playing an 8 high with a very weak kicker and you should remember that this is the reality of what you are holding.

If you flop bottom two pair anyone holding an overpair to the board or top pair can countefeit you and make a bigger two pair.

In this particular instance if you flop  two eights for trips and a rival holds an 8 (not very likely I know but still possible) then you are going to be outkicked and probably go broke. With two fours on the flop you may well have a better kicker than a rival as they most likely (if holding a 4 also) would have a 45 or 46 suited or otherwise but they could also be holding an A4 suited as these are limping/calling for minimum bet type of hands.

If you flop a flush or flush draw it is not impossible with 4/5 opponents for someone else to make a bigger flush.

However unlikely these scenarios may seem they do happen from time to time but the key point here is that when they do happen despite them being unlikley it is going to be very difficult for you to get away from your hand and you are going to go broke or at the very least lose a lot of chips. (NB I haven't even touched upon the more numerous times when you will partially hit or the bulk of times when you miss completely).

NEVER forget reverse implied odds.

SO the raise is very likely out and the call is dangerous but what about folding?

I have already said I am calling here but know of one top class and super aggressive player who folds in this spot. He takes the view explained above that no matter what he flops he is going to be in a very tricky spot and he is basically taking precautionary measures by folding to prevent himslef from being placed in such difficult situations. After all they say that good poker is about making good decisions and as few mistakes as possible and by preventing yourself from having to make tough decisions you are lessening the cahnce of making a mistake.

I cannot fault his thinking but maybe there is also a hidden lesson here about super aggressiveness in that it is better to be this type of player in pots where there are fewer opponents than you find yourslef against here in the same way that it is easier to bluff into small pots or against 1/2 opponents than it is into big pots or against many opponents.

Plenty of food for though but on to the next step we must go but I hope you are all enjoying this

BTW AS Tikay goaded me into this where are his thoughts on how to play these hands? and where is Brian Wilson who is an expert on playing this type of hand?

Hand Analysis - The Flop - Small Blind

ty :D ty :D

Oh wait, you weren't talking about me there.......

darn, back to the drawing board - at least i think like a top class player, thats a start.....