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Title: Stars Steps Hands Post by: jezza777 on April 03, 2008, 04:13:34 PM PokerStars Game #16454629097: Tournament #83320906, $25+$2 Hold'em No Limit - Level VI (100/200) - 2008/04/03 - 10:16:56 (ET)
Table '83320906 1' 9-max Seat #4 is the button Seat 2: incrMental (2055 in chips) Seat 4: pinfishtom (2700 in chips) Seat 5: kidzxc (1620 in chips) Seat 6: tequila.kid (1440 in chips) Seat 7: watsonalex (3495 in chips) Seat 8: thisiskoko (2190 in chips) kidzxc: posts small blind 100 tequila.kid: posts big blind 200 *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to kidzxc [Jh Jd] watsonalex: folds thisiskoko: raises 400 to 600 incrMental: raises 1455 to 2055 and is all-in pinfishtom: folds kidzxc: ....... PokerStars Game #16454726067: Tournament #83320906, $25+$2 Hold'em No Limit - Level VII (150/300) - 2008/04/03 - 10:23:49 (ET) Table '83320906 1' 9-max Seat #2 is the button Seat 2: incrMental (980 in chips) Seat 4: pinfishtom (2375 in chips) Seat 5: kidzxc (1845 in chips) Seat 6: tequila.kid (1165 in chips) Seat 7: watsonalex (4520 in chips) Seat 8: thisiskoko (2615 in chips) incrMental: posts the ante 25 pinfishtom: posts the ante 25 kidzxc: posts the ante 25 tequila.kid: posts the ante 25 watsonalex: posts the ante 25 thisiskoko: posts the ante 25 pinfishtom: posts small blind 150 kidzxc: posts big blind 300 *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to kidzxc [9s Ah] tequila.kid: folds watsonalex: folds thisiskoko: folds incrMental: raises 655 to 955 and is all-in pinfishtom: folds kidzxc:........ These two situations made me pause and I am not sure if I played them correctly. What do you do and why? It is a fairly tight table but not as agressive as it should be given the nature and structure of the tournement. Title: Re: Stars Steps Hands Post by: boldie on April 03, 2008, 04:23:32 PM remind me of the payout structure please mate.
Hand 1 I think is a fold. Hand 2 is a call for me. Title: Re: Stars Steps Hands Post by: Moskvich on April 03, 2008, 04:28:26 PM Another vote for fold the 1st and call the 2nd.
Payout is - 5th gets level 1 ticket (worth $7.50), 3rd-4th gets level 2 ticket (money back), 1st-2nd gets level 3 ticket ($82). Title: Re: Stars Steps Hands Post by: Longy on April 03, 2008, 04:31:51 PM Yep im going to be boring and say the same.
Hand 1: Fold though its close, i would call with queens. Hand 2: I snap call this and call with alot less given its a button shove, his range should be at least top 50% if he is any good but is probably alot tighter. Plus we are getting very nice pot odds over 2 to 1. Im probably calling at least top 50% here possibly wider. Title: Re: Stars Steps Hands Post by: action man on April 03, 2008, 04:58:07 PM snap call both
Title: Re: Stars Steps Hands Post by: GlasgowBandit on April 03, 2008, 04:58:59 PM 1 - call
2 - fold Title: Re: Stars Steps Hands Post by: deputydawg on April 03, 2008, 06:14:58 PM fold both
Title: Re: Stars Steps Hands Post by: Moskvich on April 03, 2008, 07:18:39 PM I'm surprised by anyone saying to fold the second, would be interested to hear their reasoning. ICM calcs suggest it's almost exactly a break-even call if his pushing range is 44+, A9o+, A7s+, KJs+, and it must be wider than that. He's probably not pushing any two (though he probably should be). But if he goes with any ace, any pair, K9+ and QT+ then you should still be calling with top 25%, and A9 is comfortably inside that.
Title: Re: Stars Steps Hands Post by: Longy on April 03, 2008, 07:49:40 PM I'm surprised by anyone saying to fold the second, would be interested to hear their reasoning. ICM calcs suggest it's almost exactly a break-even call if his pushing range is 44+, A9o+, A7s+, KJs+, and it must be wider than that. He's probably not pushing any two (though he probably should be). But if he goes with any ace, any pair, K9+ and QT+ then you should still be calling with top 25%, and A9 is comfortably inside that. Thats prob cos they don't understand ICM, most poker players don't. Title: Re: Stars Steps Hands Post by: boldie on April 03, 2008, 08:27:03 PM I'm surprised by anyone saying to fold the second, would be interested to hear their reasoning. ICM calcs suggest it's almost exactly a break-even call if his pushing range is 44+, A9o+, A7s+, KJs+, and it must be wider than that. He's probably not pushing any two (though he probably should be). But if he goes with any ace, any pair, K9+ and QT+ then you should still be calling with top 25%, and A9 is comfortably inside that. Thats prob cos they don't understand ICM, most poker players don't. I only understand a bit of it and it's as clear as day that it's a call for me. Title: Re: Stars Steps Hands Post by: Royal Flush on April 03, 2008, 08:35:24 PM 1 - call post of the year! Comic genious!2 - fold Title: Re: Stars Steps Hands Post by: GlasgowBandit on April 03, 2008, 08:36:20 PM I'm surprised by anyone saying to fold the second, would be interested to hear their reasoning. ICM calcs suggest it's almost exactly a break-even call if his pushing range is 44+, A9o+, A7s+, KJs+, and it must be wider than that. He's probably not pushing any two (though he probably should be). But if he goes with any ace, any pair, K9+ and QT+ then you should still be calling with top 25%, and A9 is comfortably inside that. Thats prob cos they don't understand ICM, most poker players don't. I only understand a bit of it and it's as clear as day that it's a call for me. But A 9 only looks pretty when suited - clear fold. Title: Re: Stars Steps Hands Post by: boldie on April 03, 2008, 08:38:07 PM I'm surprised by anyone saying to fold the second, would be interested to hear their reasoning. ICM calcs suggest it's almost exactly a break-even call if his pushing range is 44+, A9o+, A7s+, KJs+, and it must be wider than that. He's probably not pushing any two (though he probably should be). But if he goes with any ace, any pair, K9+ and QT+ then you should still be calling with top 25%, and A9 is comfortably inside that. Thats prob cos they don't understand ICM, most poker players don't. I only understand a bit of it and it's as clear as day that it's a call for me. But A 9 only looks pretty when suited - clear fold. lol..OK..now stop being silly and find me some horses to lay off tomorrow :) Title: Re: Stars Steps Hands Post by: GlasgowBandit on April 03, 2008, 09:01:49 PM I'm surprised by anyone saying to fold the second, would be interested to hear their reasoning. ICM calcs suggest it's almost exactly a break-even call if his pushing range is 44+, A9o+, A7s+, KJs+, and it must be wider than that. He's probably not pushing any two (though he probably should be). But if he goes with any ace, any pair, K9+ and QT+ then you should still be calling with top 25%, and A9 is comfortably inside that. Thats prob cos they don't understand ICM, most poker players don't. I only understand a bit of it and it's as clear as day that it's a call for me. But A 9 only looks pretty when suited - clear fold. lol..OK..now stop being silly and find me some horses to lay off tomorrow :) I'll give u a head start the 2nd and 3rd favs in the last at Kempton. Title: Re: Stars Steps Hands Post by: fidget on April 03, 2008, 09:17:25 PM call call
Title: Re: Stars Steps Hands Post by: KarmaDope on April 03, 2008, 09:18:53 PM Fold first one. There's still another player to act who could have you dominated, before you even think about the all in guy.
Call the second faster than Kev gets to the buffet! Title: Re: Stars Steps Hands Post by: jezza777 on April 04, 2008, 12:54:33 AM Thanks for the replies. I passed the jacks and called with the A9. Seems my judgement is ok.
Title: Re: Stars Steps Hands Post by: AlexMartin on April 04, 2008, 04:27:01 AM Title: Re: Stars Steps Hands Post by: action man on April 04, 2008, 09:15:44 AM we are passing the JJ with 7 bb? the shover has fold equity which widens his range the OR needs a big hand to call (if we overcall) and if he doesnt there is 600 extra equity in the pot. If we win the pot we are in great shape.
Title: Re: Stars Steps Hands Post by: Longy on April 04, 2008, 02:31:28 PM we are passing the JJ with 7 bb? the shover has fold equity which widens his range the OR needs a big hand to call (if we overcall) and if he doesnt there is 600 extra equity in the pot. If we win the pot we are in great shape. This is really flawed thinking in a sng format, sngs because of the payout structure (this include steps) are about preserving chips in most situations in comparison to gaining them. As each chip you have when you are low stack is worth alot more than when you are big stack. We are on the first payout bubble on the steps format and therefore we are already tightening up our calling ranges. Fwiw I put through sngwiz just now with a 15%(a4+,kj+,33=) opening range for villian calling only top (1010+,ak) and a 5%(aq+,99+) range for the 3bettor and it is only call for qq+. JJ is about a 1% of the prizepool mistake in calling. Of course this range are based on them both being solid players, but we don't have any reads. Title: Re: Stars Steps Hands Post by: GlasgowBandit on April 04, 2008, 02:44:24 PM we are passing the JJ with 7 bb? the shover has fold equity which widens his range the OR needs a big hand to call (if we overcall) and if he doesnt there is 600 extra equity in the pot. If we win the pot we are in great shape. This is really flawed thinking in a sng format, sngs because of the payout structure (this include steps) are about preserving chips in most situations in comparison to gaining them. As each chip you have when you are low stack is worth alot more than when you are big stack. We are on the first payout bubble on the steps format and therefore we are already tightening up our calling ranges. Fwiw I put through sngwiz just now with a 15%(a4+,kj+,33=) opening range for villian calling only top (1010+,ak) and a 5%(aq+,99+) range for the 3bettor and it is only call for qq+. JJ is about a 1% of the prizepool mistake in calling. Of course this range are based on them both being solid players, but we don't have any reads. This is where I think all these tools are crazy. I don't get why we pass JJ and call with A9???? It seeme mental to me. Maybe this is where I am going wrong? I I much rather get my chips in the middle with JJ over A9 any day of the week. Title: Re: Stars Steps Hands Post by: Longy on April 04, 2008, 03:00:57 PM we are passing the JJ with 7 bb? the shover has fold equity which widens his range the OR needs a big hand to call (if we overcall) and if he doesnt there is 600 extra equity in the pot. If we win the pot we are in great shape. This is really flawed thinking in a sng format, sngs because of the payout structure (this include steps) are about preserving chips in most situations in comparison to gaining them. As each chip you have when you are low stack is worth alot more than when you are big stack. We are on the first payout bubble on the steps format and therefore we are already tightening up our calling ranges. Fwiw I put through sngwiz just now with a 15%(a4+,kj+,33=) opening range for villian calling only top (1010+,ak) and a 5%(aq+,99+) range for the 3bettor and it is only call for qq+. JJ is about a 1% of the prizepool mistake in calling. Of course this range are based on them both being solid players, but we don't have any reads. This is where I think all these tools are crazy. I don't get why we pass JJ and call with A9???? It seeme mental to me. Maybe this is where I am going wrong? I I much rather get my chips in the middle with JJ over A9 any day of the week. Bandit stop thinking about the value of the cards in front of you and look to assess the situation this is nothing to do with tools essentially. In the first case we have a raise from EP with probably decent cards and then a 3bet from the co now this guy almost certainly has something strong (just how strong). Therefore jj doesn't look great as we have info the other two players like/love their hand.Tough fold. In the 2nd situation we have a shortie who opens on the button, he is desperate and need chips, he is going to shove lots of hands here, you would I hope. Firstly look at the pot odds, hmmm there nice over 2 to 1 against a player who is desperate. Zomg I has an ace, this is likely to be good and only have to win this hand less than 1 in 3 times to make a profit long term. Easy call. Surely you can see the difference, no tools required, well apart from me. Title: Re: Stars Steps Hands Post by: boldie on April 04, 2008, 03:08:57 PM we are passing the JJ with 7 bb? the shover has fold equity which widens his range the OR needs a big hand to call (if we overcall) and if he doesnt there is 600 extra equity in the pot. If we win the pot we are in great shape. This is really flawed thinking in a sng format, sngs because of the payout structure (this include steps) are about preserving chips in most situations in comparison to gaining them. As each chip you have when you are low stack is worth alot more than when you are big stack. We are on the first payout bubble on the steps format and therefore we are already tightening up our calling ranges. Fwiw I put through sngwiz just now with a 15%(a4+,kj+,33=) opening range for villian calling only top (1010+,ak) and a 5%(aq+,99+) range for the 3bettor and it is only call for qq+. JJ is about a 1% of the prizepool mistake in calling. Of course this range are based on them both being solid players, but we don't have any reads. This is where I think all these tools are crazy. I don't get why we pass JJ and call with A9???? It seeme mental to me. Maybe this is where I am going wrong? I I much rather get my chips in the middle with JJ over A9 any day of the week. Yes. Longy put it much more eloquent than I can in his reply but if you think the JJ situation is a better situation for a call than the A9 situation you really haven't thought it through or should work on it a bit more mate. Title: Re: Stars Steps Hands Post by: fidget on April 06, 2008, 04:12:59 PM I call both.
The A9 is easy. The JJ because i disagree with the ranges in Longys calculation. These ranges only make it a 1% mistake and I think they give far too much credit to the other two players. As you say these are the ranges a competent STT player would have. If youve scoped them both and they are both winners then fine I suppose you can pass but I think that in a vacuum passing would be a mistake. The steps offer value from weaker players moving up and as Longy says "Thats prob cos they don't understand ICM, most poker players don't." Feel free to put me straight if my thinking is flawed Title: Re: Stars Steps Hands Post by: GlasgowBandit on April 09, 2008, 07:04:44 PM I've just been given a lesson in push/fold theory by the one and only Mr Boba Fett. We agree the first one is marginal but I am still deffo calling and I am now calling hand 2 2 as well.
Title: Re: Stars Steps Hands Post by: boldie on April 09, 2008, 08:36:35 PM I've just been given a lesson in push/fold theory by the one and only Mr Boba Fett. We agree the first one is marginal but I am still deffo calling and I am now calling hand 2 2 as well. Good man, Bandit. :) Title: Re: Stars Steps Hands Post by: NoflopsHomer on April 09, 2008, 10:12:49 PM Instashove both and then type in to the chatbox, "I'm doing the robot dance in my pants in front of my computer whilst you donks give me your precious money that should've been spent on your child's birthday present."
Title: Re: Stars Steps Hands Post by: boldie on April 10, 2008, 08:26:32 AM Instashove both and then type in to the chatbox, "I'm doing the robot dance in my pants in front of my computer whilst you donks give me your precious money that should've been spent on your child's birthday present." now there's an image I did not need. Title: Re: Stars Steps Hands Post by: Boba Fett on April 10, 2008, 06:19:05 PM After said discussions with Mr. Bandit on push/fold theory, I still fold JJ and call A9 but here is another question. What would the calling range for Hand 1 be? I say AA/KK/QQ but Im questioning QQ, I think its on the correct side of marginal but I have no ICM tools to check.
Title: Re: Stars Steps Hands Post by: Longy on April 10, 2008, 06:57:12 PM After said discussions with Mr. Bandit on push/fold theory, I still fold JJ and call A9 but here is another question. What would the calling range for Hand 1 be? I say AA/KK/QQ but Im questioning QQ, I think its on the correct side of marginal but I have no ICM tools to check. Fwiw I put through sngwiz just now with a 15%(a4+,kj+,33=) opening range for villian calling only top (1010+,ak) and a 5%(aq+,99+) range for the 3bettor and it is only call for qq+. JJ is about a 1% of the prizepool mistake in calling. From earlier in the thread. |