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FullTiltPoker Game #6108286119: Table Vintners (6 max) - $2/$4 - No Limit Hold'em - 12:39:31 ET - 2008/04/20
Seat 1: 2chehaira ($400)
Seat 2: jwpoker4 ($400)
Seat 3: sprokske ($256.60)
Seat 4: Kharlogg ($419)
Seat 5: F4Zi ($765.20)
Seat 6: UpTheMariners ($949.65)
Kharlogg posts the small blind of $2
F4Zi posts the big blind of $4
The button is in seat #3
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to UpTheMariners [Jd Jc]
UpTheMariners raises to $14
2chehaira folds
jwpoker4 raises to $48
sprokske folds
Kharlogg folds
F4Zi folds
UpTheMariners calls $34
*** FLOP *** [9h 8c 6s]
UpTheMariners checks
jwpoker4 bets $72
UpTheMariners has 15 seconds left to act
UpTheMariners raises to $152
jwpoker4 has 15 seconds left to act
jwpoker4 raises to $352, and is all in
UpTheMariners has 15 seconds left to act
UpTheMariners has requested TIME

how do you play this hand in this situation? jwjoker4 is a reg and normally runs at 22/20 over many hands. ive just got a new computer so only have stats for this session and hes running 17/13 (53 hands) which is well below what he normally plays.

out of interest what is your flop raise trying to achieve?

i hate to say the words.... to find out where i am.

im unsure as to the best way to play this hand.

have you read this thread?

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=175614&highlight=raptor (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=175614&highlight=raptor)

I think ur raise gets worse to fold and better to raise but I don't play as hi steaks so I'm hesitant to answer. If you call you let him bluff.

i cant see him sending another bullet my way with ak. so check call flop  ;carlocitrone;

he has overpair also... Jacks no good

the flop raise was a waste as u can already tell he has huge pair QQ in my eyes

i dont mind the play, but now you fold.

so just fold JJ oop pre to RR, but that feels so weak?

would you of check called the flop?

theres a thread a couple of pages in where i found myself in the same spot with qq lloyd gives a gd answer on there, i started the thread QQ hand

I agree raise incase he does have ak u dont want to let him hit but with his rr its gotta be stronger than this so id fold.

Call the flop, reasses the turn. A raise here achieves nothing but gets worse hands to fold and better hands to stack us.

Very hard spot. I was trying to find a way to 4 bet pre but i cant.

I wanted to find an amount which he could fold to but we could also fold comfortably to a push to.

If we make it $120 - $140 then i struggle to fold for $260ish more and if we make it $119 or less he has to call that bet rly.

I guess you just have to rely on his stats. But if you dont have stats on him, i have no idea what to do.

LeKnave would snap fold the flop, id probs raise. Hes a bigger winner than me, so just fold.

Really villain dependant imo.
this only works as a strong/optimal line if villain willingly gives us good information on turn. Iv villain is good tricky, flatting flop is not so cool as he bangs turn again regardless and we fold as a standard play. A raise here wins us the pot here a lot of the time, in an oop spot with a marginal hand.
I take flat flop as a standard line against conventional TAG, not against thinking TAG.

p.s just remembered his session stats. I dont actually mind a donk lead if this guy is weak tight.

Meh, I disagree Alex.

We make more by flatting the flop against all different types of tags. The only way we get value by raising is that if villian is willing to stack a hand worse than JJ here. Our read says probably not.

The turn is bound to be tricky  no matter what the card but then we use our reads if he fires again and this doesn't mean we necessarily fold. If villian likes to fire twice here with little then we can get our stack in good.

If you are saying you would bang this turn close to 100% of the time, Im snapping this off no problem as it is very easy to exploit. Most nit villians don't fire the 2nd barrell and we can give up against them at a cheaper price.

Its always good to disagree imo m8, its the best way to learn. I do actually agree with you on this problem after more reflection. This is one of the trickiest situations that comes up time and again esp against a LAG. Far easier problem in position and againt a more abc player.

This should be a clear solution owing to the fact villain looks fairly nitty. So prolly c/c flop and c/f turn is best as he shouldnt fire turn with worse as a big chunk of our range has tripped up and we look stubborn.


However, in general versus a more open/loose opponent.......

Oop i dont favour the cc flop line with a good made hand after calling a 3bet preflop. Its just so hard to not end up in marginal spots for stacks on the river.


I think our hand is likely good here a huge bunch of the time, but incredibly vulnerable. I dont like the idea of giving free cards oop. Look at the state of that board!
I dont want a good villain repping any A,K or Q that lands and i dont want to give 1010 a 6out shot. Too many scare cards and too often we end up pot-commited on turn where we have no idea where we are.


Im not raising for value here, our hand isnt big enough to get worse to call imo. Im raising because our hand is likely good and i want to take the initiative. Also i dont want my check raise range to be monsters or bluffs.


basically, yeah, ur right :)