blonde poker forum

This has happened several times to me and I am looking for a different strategy

midway through a 6 handed sit n go you have 30 BB left and average chips, blinds 25/50.

Losing player (according to sharkscope) who has been in every pot raises to 150 from mid position you have AK suited  and RR to 450  he insta shoves and has you covered.

You make the call and lose a race against 55.

with this in mind I am now plainng to flat call raises in simillar positions against fishy players but re raise solid players.

that way I can still get paid of if I hit the flop and lose the minimum if I miss. I prefer to play flops with fishy players as they will pay you off.

Opinions on this please

Are fish shoving with only Pocket Pairs though? I think calling their shove is more profitable in the long run because of the times that they are playing Ax or hands like KQs.

You are giving up a lot of value here in my humble opinion.

or in other words you win the minimum if you hit because the small pp isn't going to like the flop unless they hit their set in which case you lose the maximum.

and you lose the minimum when you miss.

There's no better way of playing this hand in a 6 seat sit n go. You've got all the chips in the middle up against a pocket pair pre flop. You get to see all five cards and have a 50 50.

If you only see the flop you're no longer getting the 50 50. As you both put the same money in you aren't getting maximum value from your chips.

That makes this a -EV situation. (Calculator people feel free to ridicule if I'm wrong)

To maximise value you need to see all 5 cards. You did right. Stick with it.

Only other way to play AK here would be to re raise all in instead of to 450. That way you have fold equity as well which long term may prove more profitable. Some may say that you only get called if you're behind but this is totally wrong in a 6 seat s n g.

The way I see it is I am a better player than mr fish. where is the advantage in taking on that player for my stack on a coin flip?

IMHO the only hand Mr Fish will RR all in that I am domintaing is AQ....I dont see it happening with AJ or worse and I wont be up against AQ very often.  Mr fish loves to push though with small pocket pairs, why because Mr fish always puts you on AK.

Typically Mr Fish want to play flops with a wide range of hands hoping to flop something, again with the thinking that you have AK so if he can catch a pair with 10 J or simillar and you have Ace high he can win the pot.
In this instance though Mr fish is not RR you all in but trying to outflop you with undercards.

So again why take him on on a coin flip? you may get a better situation when you have a premium pair.

I also feel the key time in Sit n go comes much later when you are down to 10-15 bbs and that is when Mr fish will make more mistakes.  If I had only 10bbs left then I am RR all in with  AK every time.

I just feel with the Blind to stack ratio its very early for a coin flip.

On the downside you are missing out on building a bigger pot Vs hand s like KQ that have raised into you and would probably calll a re raise.

One further point I wanted to make...

If you are going to use Sharscope / Poker tracker etc to help with your game then surely you should be using that knowledge to develop different strategies against different types of players....

i like ur thoughts chrisbruce, deffo worth considering if he is this type of player. Reduces the variance and increases your skill edge. In a heads-up situation, with deepish stacks, its cool to flat AK in position v this guy. Just dont do it oop or in multiway pots too often is what id way, coz ur pi55ing away blinds with a hand that will only connect 32% of the time.

Chris, the coinflips only occur when you are priced in.  You create value for yourself in other situations.  Thats not to say that playing flops with AK and this number of bbs is easy, it certainly isn't.

If the fish always puis you on AK why not try calling or raising with other hands for example any decent suited connectors.

If you hit you win because he thinks you missed, if you miss but there's an A or K out there you can win by firing the bluff.

This way you've actually got 4 cards to hit on the flop and suddenly from a 2 to 1 dog you're 2 to 1 favorite.

Might be worth trying.

I would shove preflop, though you have 30bbs effective. With the raise to 150 we now have as much in the pot as when the blinds are 75/150, so we only have 10bb effective now and ak is fine to shove.

I hate raising if you are not going to shove, stacks aren't deep enough post flop for you to outplay villian to any great extent. Calling is fine imo and something I do alot in the early stage of sngs, then playing fit or fold postflop.

If he felts 55 here he will also aq-a10, kq etc generally giving us a nice edge.

Here is an example of how I intend to play my AK v Fish which of course went all to plan.....well almost...sigh

Pokerstars Game (?) Tournament #91000753, $210+$15 Hold'em No Limit - Level II (15/30) - 2008/06/05 - 18:31:52 (ET)
Table '91000753 1' 10-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: gabyalp (2245 in chips)
Seat 2: petemarino (1325 in chips)
Seat 3: hotstuff38 (1920 in chips)
Seat 4: sodyssey (1790 in chips)
Seat 5: Comma_D (1470 in chips)
Seat 6: domingo32 (830 in chips)
Seat 7: genez (1470 in chips)
Seat 8: caprioli (1515 in chips)
Seat 9: hupwhat (1010 in chips)
Seat 10: Hero (1425 in chips)
hotstuff38: posts small blind 15
sodyssey: posts big blind 30

Holecards:
Dealt to Hero  Ahrt Ks
FOLD Comma_D
RAISE domingo32, 60 to 90
FOLD genez
FOLD caprioli
FOLD hupwhat
CALL Hero , 90
FOLD gabyalp
CALL petemarino, 90
FOLD hotstuff38
FOLD sodyssey

Flop:
 Kc 4c 2c
CHECK domingo32:
BET Hero , 270
RAISE petemarino, 270 to 540
FOLD domingo32
CALL Hero , 270

Turn:
 2s
BET Hero , 795 and is all-in
CALL petemarino, 695 and is all-in
Uncalled bet (100) returned to Hero

River:
 7c

Showdown:
Hero : shows  (two pair Kings and Deuces)
petemarino: shows [   ] (a flush King high)
petemarino collected 2785 from pot

SUMMARY:
Total pot 2785 | Rake 0

Board:
[      ]
Seat 1: gabyalp folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: petemarino (button) showed  6c 6s and won (2785) with a flush King high
Seat 3: hotstuff38 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: sodyssey (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: Comma_D folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: domingo32 folded on the Flop
Seat 7: genez folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: caprioli folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: hupwhat folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 10: Hero showed [   ] and lost with two pair Kings and Deuces

I still think reraising AK is a better play myself. In this hand you have two opponents and I would expect blinds to call most of time, so lucky to have two opponents not four.

Not sure I like the play in the hand example, given the stack sizes. You've been min raised and you elected to call. Why did you call? Why did you elect to not shove or fold, because as we know min raises often mean incredible strength or a semi bluff.

If you felt that villain was bluffing I really think you need to commit your stack on the flop. You don't have enough chips to play the hand through to the river so it's a fold/shove situation. Calling is the infinitely worse option.

without being 2 arrogant I put him on that near exact hand. Or what I was sure was a one club hand.

Now here is my logic/ thinking in this sort of situation.

A good player in that situation will min raise with a made hand i.e. flush and flat call a big drawing hand.

A poor player in that situation will flat call a made hand and raise a drawing hand.

I am sure I have the best hand at this point but do not feel I have a big enough advantage to shove vs a flush draw with 2 cards to come. WHAT you say how can you not Jam here????? Well I am only a 60/40 favourite to win the hand at this point if my read is correct.  Flat calling allows me to get away from the hand on the turn if another club falls. When the blank (2s) hits the turn I can now get the rest of my chips in as a big favourite.

This slightly skewy logic is derived from 2 things.

1. I  play hands differently online than I would in a live card situation.
1. Online I have lost more money than I have won getting all my money / chips in against a flush draw on the flop

I think that its worth noting that according to sharkscope "hero" has a negative roi.

Wow..i am almost on what Flushy would call "live tilt" here.

A; a Good player will min-raise a made hand like a flush? Really? I must have skipped that masterclass.
B; 60-40 is not a big enough advantage? just how big does your advantage have to be?
C; when the blank turn hits I can get my chips in as a big favourite..BUT You won't get a call from a  FD, will you?..so the turn betting would effectively only be to take the pot down?

D; Online I have lost more money than I have won getting all my money in against a FD? Do you have records for that?..That's very specific records you have to be keeping. Also that could of course be described as variance, no?..We had already established that you are a favourite if you get all your money in against the FD...so (unless online poker is rigged) you should be happy to get your money in against a FD...if only you do it consistantly and often enough you should win money...rather than lose it in this situation.

E; playing hands differently online than live...yes but surely not to the extent that you don't want to get your money in as a favourite online?

I might be missing something here (Lord knows that often happens) but if you could run over those points for me that'd be good as I really don't get your thinking there.

So do I lol :)

A good player will do whatever he thinks will get the most out of his oppo. That often means doing exactly the opposite of what weaker players perceive as being the right thing to do.


Not trying to nit pick but you flat called with a made hand on the flop. Why didn't you just shove your chips in when you knew you were ahead?


60/40 would be plenty good enough for me to get all my chips in the middle. Long term if you're ahead and favourite you have to get as many chips in the middle as possible.

Flat calling effectively gives him a free turn card. His money's already in the pot and you're not charging him any more to get exactly what you think he wants. His raise was intended to make you fold. He's not 100% sure of his 6 so he doesn't really want any more action. By flat calling there's now that many chips in the pot that even on the blank turn he can't possibly fold.

I think that as played he probably thought that his 6's were good and that it was you who was drawing to a bigger flush. He was trying to get you off the pot but you kept fishing for that club. I bet he was in shock when he saw what you actually had.

Boldie

firstly I am enjoying this debate / discussion its gets me thinking which is good.

A. That is my opinion / read of this particular situation and I was spot on.
B.  60/40 is my at best odds if I am up against a hand like Ks Qc I am a 45 /55 dog that would become 70/30 Favourite on a blank turn
C. I got a call on my turn push from 6c 6s ....cos as I said he is a fish....poor players struggle to get away from hands on the turn..
D. Can I prove that I have lost more money online vs a flush draw on the flop .....probably........but who cares?  But I am fed up losing those situations and Personally I will not get all my money in on the flop.

The point of this thread though is that I will play hands differently against players with a poor track record than proven winners.

On a side issue are you really able to see my Sharscope? I dont really want to be discussing strategy and giving away my screen name. for the record I have a positive r.o.i. after digging myself out of a large sharkscope hole.

I said "hero" lol (it is actually someones screen name)

Don't get fed up losing in these situations. It happens a lot and you probably remember the loses far more readily than the wins. Everybody's got a bad beat story but not many people tell you about the time their kings held up against the fish with a flush draw.

Long term you will win more than you lose. If you're on a bad run so have lost a few and decide to give up on them you will never achieve the long term potential of 60 40 or 70 30 hands.

Poor players are brilliant. Anyone who allows you to get all your chips in against them when they're behind should be encouraged and taken advantage of. Dont' give them the chance to escape cheaply on the off chance that they may hit.

Ok mate I take on board your point.

As it happens I am running ok at the moment cashing 3 out of the last 4 sit n gos.

I had 2 situations with AK again both when I have 30bb or more.......getting boring now....

1. Raise and re raise from a player with solid stats I pass AK suited and the initial raiser passes.

2 . open shove from mid position for 1400 chips blinds 25 / 50 from a player with a poor record I call with AK and lose to A 4 .....sigh.......not moaning just trying to justify / explain my decision making.

OMG, read the highlighted points againt and cringed. I agree boldie, life tilt.