blonde poker forum

I flopped a K high flush (holding  Kc Jc ) in early position 5 men to the flop in a 1/2 NL cash game online the other day, no preflop raising, reasonable mix of players, no slags. I deviated from my usual MO (having read a ton of stuff on leading out in these situations) and led out with a pot sized bet. As I figured, the basic idea (apart from building a pot and charging an  Ac holder) is to disrepresent (is that a word) a made flush or at least a strong one. Well everyone folded. I know sometimes I get action but I was wondering if I'm giving my opponents too much credit. I'm thinking that even after playing online quite a bit I still don't know who I'm up against. I know  Ac is probably calling here as are top pair and better. I also know from experience that not betting here seems to disrepresent the flush. When the villian makes 2 pair/straight etc on river the money going in shows that it didn't enter his head that you are slow playing a flush.
I'm just trying to draw a map of what is going on in the head of Joe Average in these situations, and I'm thinking that leading out is to be reserved mainly for when you're up against players clever enough to be fooled by it (and mostly they're not at my tables).

I used to check these hands all the time, but like you i will now lead out. You will often get reraised by someone who thinks they can push you off the hand because you obviously wouldnt bet out if you flopped a flush. Also if you bet the flop then check the turn as long as its not a club you look like youve missed your draw.

Theres many times you get nothing from this but when someone comes along from the start its a great opportunity to win someones whole stack.

imo

lol, i think you're over analysing jut a little bit too much, you're line here was fine and pretty standard.

I think the comment i quoted from you is most indicative of how you're seeing the game and situations

In this particular hand your oppo's all happened to have garbage, thats it, just ul,


particularly the average joe comment, the average joe is a player like you that is analysing situations, making mistakes doing whatever poker players do, im sure you've been in a limped multi way pot and folded to a flop bet without giving it anymore thought.

theres no big conspiracy between all the other players against and your hole cards arnt being exposed to the other players(unless you play on one site inparticular ::)) and as you've eluded to you know the reasons why it's +EV to lead here so forget about this hand

p.s raise pre ;D

If you lead out when you haven't hit and everyone folds then you're getting players to fold the better hand - and that's what you want.

If you bet out with the best hand and someone calls or raises you, then you've also got what you wanted as they're putting money in with the worst hand. 

Of course, if they have nothing they're going to fold.  C'est la vie.

I like this response.

basically you made a particular play and didn't get the result you wanted so you're immediately questioning the play. unfortunately your sample size of 1 hand really isn't quite big enough.

This hand is all about position.

In early position you might as well check and hope someone bets out. Anyone with a good hand (trips or weak flush) is likely to bet because they're scared of the flush draw. Anyone with nothing needs a chance to catch up a bit so they've got a reason to bet. You can't be scared of the ace so just play it as though it's the nuts. If you come up against it well that's life you lose your money. Reload and start again.

If you're in late position you can lead out making it look like a steal which could make any other strong hand raise. I'd still be checking though to give one of the other 4 a chance to steal.

You never know your luck. Someone might be sat on a pair and could hit trips on the turn. If they do they've got to bet so you might get paid a bit.

You're never likely to get paid well on these hands so like Kinboshi says "C'est la vie" move on to the next one.

One possible lesson to learn though is the power of bluffing on these boards. How often do you represent the flush when there's been 5 limpers and the board comes out all of one suit? It's very rare that you get paid on these so maybe it's time to start getting paid when you've got nothing. If you've made the same bet with  Kh Jh you'd be patting yourself on the back for making a great move.

I would think that most players will happily check this down and fold to any bet. It's a great opportunity for strong players to make some easy money.

(Don't get me wrong it can be a pretty quick way to lose money as well  ;D)

A couple of other things -

What's the flop exactly? If it's 2c 3c Tc then it's likely that even four limpers don't have much of it, and I'd be inclined to check. If it's 7c 9c Tc or similar then you're going to get action a lot, and you're probably better leading out.

Related to this is the question of what your range is on this board - how many plausible hands are there that you can have after limping in EP and then leading out on the flop? Again, if the flop's 2c 3c Tc  then there aren't that many non-flush hands you can have here. Two pair's basically impossible, sets of 2's or 3's maybe, AT with the  Ac (probably would have raised preflop?). So the made flush is a big part of your range, and your range as a whole is very strong. On the 7c 9c Tc board on the other hand, the made flush is a much smaller part of your range - you could easily have two pair, pair with the straight draw, pair with the flush draw...

Your range is of course also affected by the fact that you didn't raise preflop. What do you raise with, what do you limp with, and how do those ranges match up with the board? Leading out with a monster on the flop is probably more effective if you've raised pre, assuming that you often make a continuation bet when you've missed. This is where the 'misrepresentation' aspect of the play is strongest, as your opponents don't know if you're trying to take the pot down with overcards, whether you've got an overpair, or what - again, it makes the flopped flush a much smaller part of your range. Balancing your play like this also works in the other direction, giving your c-bets more credibility when in fact you have missed.

Firstly, was this a raised pot, secondly, what is your actual position, thirdly, what are the stack sizes at the table.
After that we can ask about ur image and the table dynamic and start making a plan.


Need a tonne more info if ur gonna get anything worthwhile.

op said: "no pre flop raising", i assumed it was limped and op wasnt talking about genrally but i might be wrong

pls forget the "making a plan" turn out here, default plan bet is good enough!!!!!

fwiw i bet 2/3 of pot here as opposed to pot but then i'm hardly ever in multi way limped pot from early, def never with this holding!

if you want to come up with a plan after getting the information you've asked for focus on pre-flop

if you want to improve, you need a plan imo. not just bet bet bet i have a flush and no-one leads big made hands so i might level a spewtard. this aint 2005.

[ x ] 2005 was good times.

I had the identical hand and flopped the flush in a live game at Stanley Luton recently. I bet out, was re-raised and pushed all in. He had the bare  Ac and hit the fourth club on the river. I thought about it after and figured I ought to have called only, let the fourth card come down. He's more inclined to fold if he only has one shot at hitting the club, but in retrospect I probably ought to check it to him in the first place.

Live players never fold the  Ac there and you didnt do anything wrong just got unlucky. Reload.

Played well, dont be results orientated. So nice when you get them in when they think they have 9 outs...........

Unlucky. But you're a big fav.
The best way to play that hand is just as you said, except add an eyeroll and when he shows say 'That is SO 2005. Spewtard.'
I'm not sure there's so much wrong with trying to figure out Mr Joe Average. I play against him all the time. As far as I know he is liable to:
-fold to a bet on a one suit flop if he doesn't hold that suit (I guess this from the alarming frequency with which bluffs get through on such boards)
-play a kind of 'green light' poker where no bet on a K high flop often means no one paired the K and no bet on a one suit flop means no one has a flush. If this were not the case it's hard to explain the frequency with which slow playing such hands yields large payoffs, so large that I wonder about the merits of leading out like I did.

From other typical plays I also think the general perception level is not high enough to wonder 'if you had the flush why would you bet it ergo you do not have the flush ergo I can represent it or my top pair is probably good'. If it's not high enough then leading out is the wrong play.
Having said that, if you stack them by slow playing it I can see them being twice-shy enough to be thrown by an oop lead out the next time round.

Thanks for the (2008) ideas! Much appreciated.

I like to mix it up here dependent on the texture of the flop. For example, if it's raggy, I might check-call then bet the turn. Other times I might just check-fold, maybe even check-raise depending on who's betting. Leading out is fine (you don't want people to think you only lead oop with two pair or more), just be careful down the streets if you get played back at.