blonde poker forum

Can anyone, anyone explain the whole chop thing! I cant take it anymore! Why do I even play comps?? I just played a comp here at Foxwoods that paid the top 4 runners a seat into the $10,000 main event, 5th got $5,000, 6th got $4,000. Everyone knew this before we started, it was no secret. I took 2 or 3 big chances w/ about 20 players still in, I had enough chips that I did not need to win more that 2 or 3 hands the rest of the way.

Then w/ 12 players left all the short stacks start bitching about saving some $$$$ for 7th and 8th. It was a joke, I said no way and then I was the bad guy. Why not start the comp, when the first guy is knocked out divide the money equally amoung the other 300 players! Sounds stupid? So does everyone that wants the bubble to feel good. The bubble is a loser, there will be a bubble in every comp ever played!

I play based on the rules and the prize structure that is given to ALL the runners at the start of a comp! Please dont call me an ass, say I dont understand, say I am an idiot, or blame me if you think the prize structure is unfair. I am simply playing under the rules, I feel it is VERY unfair to try and change the rules late in a comp. I have listened to all the arguments from it is for the good of my bankroll, short handed play is all luck, its not fair. All these things are is excuses and bull shit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I DONT CHOP, END OF STORY, please tell me why you think this is wrong, I know most of you do!

I completely agree, even just last night we got down to the final 4 of the $50 p/l on pokerstars and one person said "deal guys?", the other two said ok but i said "sorry but whilst i'm still in the tournament there will be no deals". The other two who said ok accepted it but the person who asked the question originally started getting stroppy making me out to be the bad guy - and then took great delight when i happened to be the next person to get knocked out.

The bubble will always be the bubble and online unless we are talking vast sums of money like in the big sunday tourney then there will be no deal. Playing live games at final tables of festival events then i have no objections to doing deals when down to last 3 or 4.

I am not a fan of saving for the last few stragglers and short stacks.  I am quite often short near the bubble and i never even dream of asking for a saver. - you are right rookie to play by the rules that are outlined at the start - then everyone knows what they are playing for and where they stand. - i am however not averse to a chop of the prize money at the end of a comp if the prize pool is so steep but savers for the last few is ridiculous. - where do you draw the line? - there has to be a bubble somewhere.

also what happens if there are 10 prizes and a guy with medium / low chips takes a risk with 13 left that will guarentee him a final table place if the move comes off but he actually busts out in 13th - then the remaining 12 players agree a saver as soon as he exits, which includes 4 shorter stacks than the guy who busted out in 13th? - would he have taken the risk knowing there would be a saver for 12th? - probably not! - it is changing the rules in the middle of a comp and it is wrong. - a football match couldn't be shortened to 80 minutes at the 75 minute mark with the scores level! - so why shoud a poker comp rules be changed part-way through?

I will take a deal that improves my position but it has never really come up at the levels I play!
Can't agree with moving the bubble, thats just a joke. Maybe a saver in a friendly homegame but def not online.

no deals........play to win.............end of

In this instance i agree entirely.
I will give an example of when i think it's right:-
I was in a comp that was a 2 day affair, first day plays down to the final 2 tables or 3am (i think).
Top 20 get at least their buyin back (£500), as it approached 3am there were still 21 left and someone proposed a saver for 21st because whoever it was had to come all the way back from wherever the next day.
I felt it right to give that person a few quid as did all but 1 person, ok fine i understand, nothing else was mentioned and nobody got shouted at.
Next day a fella that drove home and returned from Sheffield bubbled in about 5 minutes flat, i really felt for the guy

Out of interest, would there be any scope in the case ifm mentioned for the tournament director to step in and change the prize pool for the event, creaming £500 from the prize pool for 21st - essentially vetoing the veto of the deal - in the interests of fairness? Or is it verboten for the prize distribution to be changed once the event starts without the agreement of all the players?

actually deals are barred full stop these days, if you do a saver now the person would have to be paid from another player or wait till the payout at the end. Casinos only pay the structure now.

NO DEALS, NO SAVER, NO WAY, THANK YOU, IM OFF TO WIN THE $5,000 HERE AT FOXWOODS


ROOKIE

g0od luck brian :)up

Greg, in that $1,000 event at the Orleans in Vegas it was meant to pay only six places, but when we got down to the last nine a deal was done to give $1,000 to 7th, 8th and 9th. You finished 8th and I finished 7th, so we would have had nothing if the deal were not done - where we finished is immaterial, but I don't remember you objecting to doing that deal at the time.

I too have been converted. No deals is the way forward. :)

Savers are wrong but i don't see a problem with deals. Everyone must agree on a deal so whats wrong with it? if you don't want to deal then no deal can be done. Shame on people begging for a saver, athough given that i hate bubbling so does anyone mind if we do a saver?

Savers are just another form of deal. I see nothing wrong with doing them if all involved are in agreement. What is however out of order is people being lambasted by others for not agreeing to a proposed deal/saver.

Bang to rights Poker girlie... lets see you back out of this one :) :)

We are of course back to a subject much debated on here.....prize money structures are too steep encouraging deals early and chops with 3-4-5-6 players left

unless of course the money is not your prime motivation (you are rich, chasing ranking points, want the trophy, whatever it may be)


as for savers....stopped asking a while ago, though I did when inexperienced and getting my tournament entry cost back was soemthing I thought mattered,  and wouldn't berate anyone for saying no.

Your casino maybe. Gala Riverboat pays out the deal that is struck. But then they are retarded and only pay three prizes.

Short handed play is not all luck. Blinds are huge but so are the mistakes made. Players fold when they shouldn't and sometimes call when they shouldn't. Both can be equally cataclismic(is that a word?) in the long run.

Any healthy stack, who can play a good game, agreeing to a deal is usually throwing money away.
Just talking about online poker here as not enough exp. to talk about the live game with any authority.

I don't chop unless I'm short stack when I will chop. Consistency rules :D

ok , another chopping story from today! I am playing a $1,000 sng, winner takes the $10,000 main event seat. I have just busted from the $5,000 comp of the day and I get down to 3 players in this sng. Short stack asks for a saver, I say no thanks, he is out next hand. The "internet legend" Johhny Bax ( Cliff, won a wsop bracelet this year in 7 stud) has 11,000  chips, I have the other 29,000 and he says " lets make a deal". I say I will listen but I would lay 20-1 I wont make a deal. WE both have our bracelets on and he says " give me $4,000 and we will call it even. I dont reply, I act like he is not at the table, I ask the dealer why he is not dealing. Then " Bax " asks if ther is a problem and  I reply " NO".

I further tell him to stick his deal, his bracelet, his "reputation", and the millions he has won online UP HIS FXXXXX ASS!!!!!!!

So he just hit the ROOKIE at a bad moment????? fxxx the deals, fxxxxx the savers, fxxxx all the people that want poker to be a chop.

If I wanted to play a game called CHOP I would go to the meat market. Sorry to ramble but I just cant take it anymore.

PS  / he did win one hand heads up, and only 1, it was over before it started, sorry the great Mr. Bax, so fxxxx sorry, if you are that good and that rich it should not matter you got nothing??????? 

thank you, there are players out there that see the value in playing the game until the end, please help spread the word, play to a real winnere, pleae

i agree with you rookie in a lot of what you said ,but accoasionally they are ok  in certain circumstance - eg other week i was playing for a seat in the aussie millions , we were down to the last three all roughly equal stacked but with only one 10k package to play for , a mate was in the last 3 and he e mailed me during the game with a proposal - any one of us win and we refund the other ones stake (£270) plus a 10% of money out there - there was a 1k spending money prize included in the package  so i agreed
it didnt make me play any different and we took each other on in the normal way , so i didnt see anything wrong with his idea - well apart from the fact that we finished 2nd and 3rd respectively and both got naf all anyway  :D

Brian, I dislike it when people who refuse deals get lambasted by the rest of the players, but why be rude to people simply because they proposed one?

I am another who does not deal. (well one time in Luton £100, the blinds were HUGE and 5 of us left. I was 2nd in chips and the deal suggested, I got MORE than 2nd place would get, and only a little of 1st and we were VERY near the point of it being decided on chip stacks anyway)

I will say this,, on the times I have refused to deal (politely IMO) I am the one who has faced the backlash and harrassement of the other players that want a deal. This is also not right.

When I play a MTT, and have invested a great deal of time to get to the final table, I am not wimping out for a deal. I WANT TO WIN THE DAMN THING!!!!

By all means ask, but the answer will be "NO"

I dont want to be rude if it is Presented right, but it almost never is, it also seems that it is almost always one sided like the Bax guy. Give him 40% when he has 25% of the chips???
He says " you know the short stack always gets a little more". I don t think so, the short stack should get a little less, after all they have less so they deserve less!!!!!!! 

well said, I like it, Thanks

Yet another "CHOPPING" story, this one is really crazy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

$200 w/ rebuys, 259 runners, top 10 get $10,000 seat in the WPT main event, 11th gets $5,900, 12th Gets $3,800

There are 4-5 very short stacks, blinds are 8k 16k, short stacks have about 30k-40k!!!!!!!!

Two players w/ about 60k each decide they will take 11th and 12th $$$$$$ and divide it! What?? WOOOWWWWW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
These guys could not play the main event, could not sell or transfer the seat, but did not ask the shorter stacks to kick anything in, not really a chop, oh well!!!!!!!

I was involved, I only had 35k left, so did I really chop??? I said OK, maybe I broke my own rule? Well I guess now I can never say I have NEVER choped.

Things are running good, the 5th $10,000 seat I have won in 6 days, 4 at Foxwoods (live) and my WPT seat for the Bahamas on Poker Stars, Wont Mr. John Gale be happy to see me there as he gets ready to defend his title?????????????????????????

can I have one

yeah me too. when i win ill give you 80% good deal?

Some people are in a strong enough financial position and do not need to chop, they play for the glory.

I don't mind doing a deal if it helps someone out. This may seem a bit soft, but I don't see any halm in keeping things flexible and doing a guy a favour. In one final last year , I was chip leader and a guy took be aside at the break and showed me his credit card statement, he was really desperate, so I did a deal with him.

In another situation I was 3 way and chip leader, and the 2 guys wanted to do a deal, i refused, as they were wel known players who play big buy-in events, I busted out 3rd, typical, and they chopped it immediatley!

I guess my point is that its up to the people left in what they do, if they all agree, I don't have a problem with any deals that get done. Deals will never be taken out of Poker, so we need to just live with them.

I know a well known 2 tennis pros who agreed to chop the prize money before a final, it happens everywhere, not just poker. Money is important to a lot of people so THIS is the reason why people CHOP.

Well said Rob, Financial circumstances plays a huge part in deal making. People shouldnt be berated for either doing or refusing deals. A lot of people think the prize structure plays a big part, maybe in the big buy in tornys it does, but in the regular £20 re-buys, 80% of the time it will get chopped.

One thing that does annoy me is when a person refuses deals when hes got a good stack but asks when hes low. On principle I will refuse when these people are in the final, whether im low or not.

Emotions seem to run hot on this issue. As in most things, the arguments are either black or white, when in reality, there are shades of grey.

We are all entitled to our own views on chopping, and it DOES depend on your financial position. My biggest gripe with deals is that the "discussion" always seems to get heated. A nice, frirendly, good-spirited table descends into a slanging match the moment the word "deal" is mentioned. Why? The answer to whether a deal should be cut  is "yes", "maybe", or "no", why the need to throw your weight around?

I have no particular view either way, except I believe a deal should be the perogative of the Chip leader, & I think it's bad form - VERY bad form - for the low stack to initiate the discussion, or even partake in it. He don't get a choice, his only contribution to the debate should be "yes please" or "no thank you". I mean, I should know!

In a recent big Final, the "deal" discussion was orchestrated by the low stack, & caused much ill-feeling. Quite right too.

this is why i dont do deals, i will never get in trouble, %100 the same all the time

Thank you sir, that is really what put me off on this subject, the table was having fun and playing good poker u ntil the "DEAL" was put out. Then it was like work, no fun, everyone was bitching about everything???

Rob, please take this the right way. What you did was very good, I am sure it help that guy at all!!!! If he was playing poker w/ a large credit card bill due I dont think your compasion will help him in the long run. Life is full of choices and many times it is not fair. I have made money this year in poker but I may never $$$$ again!!! I must manage my money and my life w/in my means. When I started playing poker I lost alot of time and money from my real job, I could have made the biggest mistake of my life. It still may be a losing deal $$$$ wise if I dont turnout to be a profitable player. I dont want to be mean to people, I just want to play w/in the rules of the game.

A few of my own chop stories as I am also a NON Chopper.

1) Player refuses a saver for 11th fair enough, heads up when I have the chip lead he asks if I would like to do business a polite "no ty" and I won 2 hands later. (i was the shortest stack
    with 11 left and had to go back for the 2nd day)

2) In a 33 player tournament in which I had suggested before the tournament should only pay 6 but was paying 9, we were down to 10 players when the other tables "jointly" suggested
    a saver for 10th the cardroom manager asked our table I said no and a player on the other table wanted to know who said no. (Paying 9 players out of 33 is ridiculous enough 
    without adding something for 10th but that is for another discussion)

3) 4 handed I had the chip lead and 1 player suggested to the other 3 that they give me 1st place money because "they are only playing for 2nd and pointed at my stack"  they then 
     divided 2nd, 3rd and 4th amongst themselves then carried on and played for a special 2nd place extra prize without me. (Is this even allowed?)I am not going to say no to 1st prize no
     strings attached without having to beat them.

4) 10 left and the player looks at his cards THEN asks for "somethin' for 10th" me and riverdave on seperate tables both said no and the player moved all in reluctantly and I called in the bb
     with 9-2 and busted him by hitting a 2 on river! Afterwards he gives me a look of disgust as he leaves the table.

5) Online in a 10 rebuy 5 players left one suggests a deal and 2 others agree. The other short stack and myself both type a simple 'no' in the chatbox to which caused great laughter from
    one player who thought he was doing us both some kind of favour and as I busted 5th I got the, "what an idiot" , "should've chopped" comments. (Why do the railbirds always want
    you to chop surely they want to watch exciting short handed finals...?)
 
    Good Posts Rookie!

everytime I've made the business end of the final table at Notts a deal has been tables, everytime I've politely declined, and everytime I've felt from that moment on it becomes the field v me. I think the reason it becomes heated is because to many people it's still part of the game.it's a financial negotiation where everyone is trying to get more than their share. The weakest lose out while the forceful profit. Flatter structures and a no deals policy is the best option

There are certain people i will never ever deal with, Craig knows them and DC has mentioned them before, always happy to deal when i'm in front but won't when i'm not.
I don't see why the chipleader should start a deal chat Mr K, it is the business of everyone on a final table as they are all involved in the comp, chipleaders are not the winners of a comp until the end and have no more right than the shortstack.
JP, i remember No1 in your list!!!
I actually made an unfortunate comment on the player in question at the time on here!!
I quickly withdrew it but i did enjoy that you won it, at walsall i believe.

JP raises an important point

why in a 28 player tournament are casinos paying down to 9th, with lower prize money than the buy in?..Pay the top 5 or 6 only


my example comes from last two Fridays at Luton

I love deals in events that are as close to a crapshoot as one can get. In the usual rebuy affairs that the glasgow casinos offer, mostly populated by casual players - nobody wants to sit there till 3-4am and then go away with nothing, and especially when people are sitting similar stacked, and it becomes an all-in or fold affair.

When I'm chip lead, I don't mind discussing a deal when it is brought up. Similarly, when I am short stacked, I will bring up a deal. You're there to make money and obviously its in your interest to bring up a deal if your exit could well be imminent. But I'm not so stupid to bring up a deal when so short stacked that I only have 2-3 big blinds left. That is verging on desperation. I'd take one if offered of course.

As well, I think it does depend on who you play with. The Riverboat only pays THREE prizes! Chops at 6 or 7 places left are common. This is the fault of the prize structure. In the average bingo game, where you know most if not all of the faces - non of whom are playing professionally - I don't like to see anyone leave the final table with out some sort of prize.

Another example at the other end of the scale. Fridays £250 freezeout at the stanley, 6 players left all roughly even on chips (about 30-35k) apart from Burnly John who had about 20k more than me. Blinds at 3k-6k it was an all-in or fold affair. I had my sights set on 1st prize, as I moved all in with a pair of 5s and John called from BB with AQ and hit a Q high straight on the turn. C'est La Vie. I didnt ask nor expect to take a deal for 6 players - it was a different type of game. I jokingly said once I went out "WHERES MY SAVER!" But it just didnt feel right to mention a deal at such a big occasion.

I suppose what Im trying to say is that its okay going half-ers with your mate in a local back street pub darts match but when your in a large prize pot televised final then its not. Or something.

I have spoken to the chaps at Bolton re this where 30 or so starters is quite common at the moment.

Seems to be a general directive from on high to all the Grosvenors.

lol at number 3! - talk about surrender! - wow!

Hows this one then Junior:

Cincinattis, final table. 5 places paid, 6 players left.

One guy, who is a fairly obvious chip leader (possibly 2nd CL) who is at his very first live event having played online for a while. Hes been playing well although very obviously nervous. He asks if everyone is happy just to give him a prize of £50 for him to leave the tournament as he had work the next morning and didnt want to stay any later (buy in was £15 + 1 top-up of £15 which everyone took). Thats £10 off everyones prize. 5th place was just on £100. We nearly bit his hand off! There was a guy at the table who had only a few big blinds left FFS!

We gave him the deal and his chips where removed from play.

Some deals, no matter your stance on them, are just too good not to take!

your lying micky! - no way on earth did that happen. - if it did then the guy wants shooting

I agree Junior.

If he wanted to leave, he could of just "gone" and let himself get blinded away - surely he would of made 5th spot at least!!

Or alternatively, just kept going all in on the smaller stacks blinds.

I find this story a little hard to believe!!

(But thats not to say it ISNT true, there are some strange people around you know)

It happened, I was dealing. I couldn't believe it, but it wasn't my place to say anything. Like Mikky says the other players nearly bit his arm off.  :D

Im Not Suprised!!!!

WOT A DICK!!!  >:?

I vaguely remember 3. Was it at Luton with El Blondie being one of the other three? I seem to remember the other three sloping off to discuss it while you sat there alone at the table, but if memory serves me right they claimed not to have dealt when they got back from their chat.

I seriously doubt that!!

It may not be the incident that JP is referring to but Dave and the other two involved were talking in terms of 'we're can only get 2nd place' when it went 4 handed in that comp. JP had over 60% of the chips. Not sure if any deal was done, but it was discussed, that all I'm saying.

If this was the comp that JP won after playing H-U with Dave, NO deal was done.

Do you understand my point, people getting the shaft, questions about everything!!! Was there a deal, was there not!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



NO MORE DEALS PLEASE

I think that HU is the best part of the tournament - it's where the real head games come into play - just you and the other guy. It's my favourite part - a bit like having a 99 ice cream and working round to the flake at the end... 

I have chopped a few times - with friends I dont mind. I chopped a £5K buy in game (big for me) and shared with one other guy - we were almost equal but we both decided that it was a good idea as the third in chips had been drinking (more money than sense) and he was getting dangerous purely because he was liable to call with anything, luckily he agreed to almost anything too....

At the Bellagio we did a deal but it was all done away from the table, the casino didnt allow any discussions at the table.

However at my boyfriends local casino last night (Sunday) the card room announced once we were sat down that as the turn out had been poor the £100 freezeout was now a rebuy, with a £50 add on at the end for 50% of original chips. Out of order, I went with my stake money and had to play accordingly, but as everyone else agreed I felt intimidated and didn't speak out. Regret it now - but I got the impression that the majority ruled and I wouldn't have played at all. On the internet their Sunday game advertises free buffet too...nothing appeared so I went hungry too.....no wonder their numbers are falling.

No I wasn't referring to that it was a regular £100 freezeout. NO DEAL was done in the one you were referring to Jonathon.

Yeah okay I'm lying. I make thinks up on the intarweb just for kicks...  >:?