blonde poker forum

$100 FO. Average stack 17k, our stack 35k, villain 30k. 20 get paid, 24 left. Blinds 300/600. Villain seems pretty straightforward and solid for past hour or so, hasnt got out of line at all and looks on the tigher side. Prolly views me as conservative tag. Really not sure how to get maximum value whilst protecting our hand somewhat in a deep spot.

Would like to know if this is prolly best line to max a conservative oppo OOP and also whether the turn is call or fold. FWIW i folded so its not a BB story.

Folded to us in SB. Complete w  Kh 3h. Villain checks.

Flops  Ks  4h   3c

We leads out for 1k, villain raises to 3k.

Our move?


We called. Turn  Th. we check, villain bets 2k, we make it 6k. Villain shoves......and iv been arguning with a mate all day long about the fold.

Well i certainly don't think i would have left this hand without getting my stack in.

I probably look to play for stacks on the flop, make it like 8-10k and call a shove. Im ok with calling the flop but would much prefer to do it in position where it has lots more value imo.

As for the turn, well haven't we only got a pot sized bet back once we get 3 bet shoved on. I know his line looks super strong but in a bvb battle he could well be going crazy with a worse 2 pair imo. Also most hands that are killing us on the turn raise pre even from a tight opponent (kk,1010,44,33, k10). K4 of course does make sense. Plus we has a flush draw and a few odds and sods outs to fill up against parts of his range.

So yeah i get it in, if you stove it Alex if you include just one inferior 2 pair hand(43o for example) it is a call on the turn.

I prefer raising pre.  People never defend anywhere near enough from the BB and you dont get BvB confrontations very often for them to know you're raising ATC.  I really really dislike your CR on the turn if you're planning to fold.  You still have tons of equity to get there if you're behind.  I think you got into a levelling war regarding his tiny bet, you pretty much turned your hand into a bluff since nothing he raises flop with you get value from since hes already polarized his range to hell.  Just call and C/R or more likely C/C the river.

I think 3 betting the flop would be pretty bad since I really don't think he value raises KJ/KT here so he pretty much has air/set.  Plus even if he does raise his kings for value, i'd be surprised if he stacks off with it to a 3 bet.  So ya I think 3 betting the flop turns your hand into a bluff except when he spazzs out with 34

I cannot believe this is a fold! But i think we've got ourselves into a pickle by check raising the turn, i'd flat it and check call virtually all river bets if we don't flush or hit the FH...

As played i'd have to call, were behind to K4/K10 or a set, i can't find a fold...

The flop action is decent enough but I agree with Rupert about the turn action. Not good to c-r unless you want the response you get. Your oppo has already raised you once so you know he's telling you he has something. You've got 2 pair and the potential to improve greatly with the river card. To put yourself in the position where you jeapordise your chances to see that card when you are not confident about your own hand is poor. You have turned a good hand into a bluff.

Is is fair to say that your oppo thinks he has you beat. But don't forget you lead on the flop with your 2 pair. This is not going to look like 2 pair. So any reason for subsequent action can still be related back to this. If your oppo decided to take a flop with K-Q/K-J he is going to think he's ahead right now and would explain his betting pattern. I agree with Longy in suggesting these small pairs are going to raise pre so I don't think he has a set. If I'm raising the turn I'm calling the push, but I'd prefer to c-call the turn any day of the week.

Some far more experienced players than me on here, but FWIW on that flop, I'm only thinking about how I get get his entire stack.. BvB so he's not folding anything if he remotely connected on the flop - I re pop to ~9k on the flop, obv calling a shove,  and if he calls, we have ~20k in the pot which is roughly his remaining stack, meaning we can put him in on the turn without it being a massive overbet

...so what Longy said basically!!  ... must remember to read the whole thread before posting

Check call check call...

Posted by: T_Mar
The problem with re-raising the flop is that it ruins your disguise. Leading out for 1K is a good play imo and doesn't reveal how strong you are. If you were to then re-raise his 3k raise you instantly reveal your strength. I don't think this is a good strat. It gives him ample opportunity to get away from his hand and you win 3k. Calling his 3k raise deprives him of this quality of info and it just looks like you have a bit of something you are reluctant to lay down. I think it is much more likely to generate bigger action if you call the flop rather than raise a raise. So it is no surprise that further action follows. The problem really is his small 2k turn bet which makes K-10 quite possible. Much happier if he bets 4k.

But K-10 is the only hand that I think is beating us right now. Happy to discount sets because small pairs raise pre. If he did take a flop with 4-4 why put in a stiff raise when you hit the jackpot? I am happyish to discount K-4 because he bets 2k on the turn after he bet 3k on the flop. I think he bets more with K-Q as well. Nah he's got K-10. wp Alex.

never ever ever folding here tbh

I wouldn't of got in this position of having to decide whether he has k10 or another random k (most likely imo) on the turn... .  I know there are arguments for him folding worse hands  if we reraise on the flop but BvB people are less likely to give up top pair hands... by reraising you create a pot that you can make a pot size bet on pretty much any turn and either win a massive pot when he stacks off with a weak K, or add 10k to your stack when he finally realises he's beat and folds... fact you hit a heart on the turn means you got more outs on the river if you been unlucky and he does in fact have k10 (or a set somehow)

OK i lied about folding. Just wanted to keep opinions open.

Superb read Mantis, i wish i could have made the same one. I needed more time tbh to go through the hands but i remember thinking oh fuck i hate that small turn bet, but still called when he shoved over my cr. He had K10, i was only concerned with my hand and maxing its value. Not sure about my line especially CRing the turn, but surely if we dont CR the turn we just let him check behind the river all the time with hands we beat, like all the lower two pairs and oddly played K9/KJ type hands. I was thinking with the turn CR it left us a pot sized river shove for value, but was completely flummoxed when he jammed the lot in. I cant think of a better line, so someone show one.

Surely you rivered the flush so whats the problem!

GF Mantis :)

Anyone think he lays his K10 down if you reraise the flop?

I would probably have called anyway just to see if I was right :)

T-Mar-ref: re-raise on the flop. At this time you don't know he has a K. Later on when we see all the action that develops your strat looks more solid and it seems very likely that he would now stack the flop. But rewind to the flop itself, before you have all this extra info. Alex who is seen as a conservative player bets 1K into a 1.2K pot around bubble time. This looks like a bet that can be easily pressured. This is why we lead out no? We want to put a bet in that looks like it can be pressured. So now our oppo can raise us with atc including complete air. If we now raise almost every hand folds. We really do not want that. We have set the trap and now our oppo has bitten we don't want to panic too soon or we will blow our cover. If we do re-raise the flop we give a hand as strong as K-10 a way out and we don't want that. Err, or do we?

Fair play mantis but if he's raising with air - how much you planning on getting out of him on later streets? In all probability he shuts down now with air.... By reraising I think you get the max value the times he does have some kind of hand... obv he sucked out here but thats besides the point.

I'm not so sure of myself that I know this to be the best line but still think I prefer it at the moment..

Alex..I haven't read the thread yet apart from OP


Why no 3 bet on the flop? looking to get enough in to push the turn as a reasonably sized bet?

once you flat the rr, i think I check call the turn and call bets on the river

i think your flop bets and turn action are inconsistent,one is smallball (no 3 bet), one then inflates the pot if that makes sense

off to read thread

ok, not a million miles off from others then.

though most wouldn't 3 bet, they'd then c/call turn

$100 FO. Average stack 17k, our stack 35k, villain 30k. 20 get paid, 24 left. Blinds 300/600. Villain seems pretty straightforward and solid for past hour or so, hasnt got out of line at all and looks on the tigher side

sounds just like my pal tbag, his faveourite trick is flatting from sb or checking his option with AA. could quite easily be the case here.
then of course he can never get away when hes beat.

Hand analysis over it's pokerfan's mate tbag and he has aa 100% of the time FACT.

 rotflmfao

Alex, if you 3 bet the flop, do you think villain will spazz out with his KT and ship it in or do you think he'd fold/call?  Like if you had to decide either way which do you think it would be?  Do you think he knew what he was doing?

i never fold here. im happy to get it all in on the flop vs 43

I am pretty sure if i 3b the flop he folds all but some crazy played AA/AK and K3/34/33/44. I really dislike b/3b the flop as we fold out all the hands we can extract from on later streets and there are so few big hands he can continue with (guessing roughly <10% of his range). In answer to your Q rupert, he definitely folds K10 if we 3b the flop.

Posted by: AlexMartin

I think this is a good comment and highlights the tremendous value the PHA Board has for all of us looking to improve as poker players. When time is limited it is pretty difficult to manage and consider every factor of situations we find ourselves in. Being able to dissect these hands when time is not an issue is incredibly useful to us. Every sports competitor will practise so when they find themselves in live situations their instincts are that much sharper. I think the benefit we get from this facility is well worth the risk of being called a 'spaz' or a 'tard' every now and then.

The time factor allows us to look at every aspect of this particular tournament situation. We are cruising along on 35k when the average is just 17k. Our oppo is tight and solid. Importantly he knows we are tight and solid as well. It is around bubble time so he isn't going to be throwing his chips away. When he bets 2k on the turn he knows 100% we aren't folding. We have just called a 2k raise into a smaller pot on the flop so we are never giving the hand up to a further 2k on the turn. So his bet tells us he doesn't want or expect us to fold. Considering all this do we need to get into a raising war with this guy on the turn? Especially because his stack can cripple us. At the time Alex picked up on the small bet and thought it was odd but pushed anyway. Now with time we can see why it was odd.

If we just called the 2k turn bet the pot will be tipping 11k and with a bit of river action it's going to be a very decent pot to win. I know Alex is concerned about squeezing the pips out of the value in this hand but given the time to look at the situation thoroughly maybe this thought process didn't fit the situation very well.   

So Alex, presuming you happy with how things went on the flop... how would you play the turn differently .... bet/3bet AI,  and value bet river if he cold calls?

i think i would trust my readz lol. When he bets small on the turn i think i should just go into c/c mode provided river bet isnt too big and let him get some value. Given what iv seen of him i doubt he goes for valuetown shove on the end and probs tries to milk me which does a lot less damage.  Probs this line is best in a comparatively deep end-game structure, with CR flop or c/c, c/r turn being best when shallower. I dont think i should change the flop play that much given the nature of the opponent and our long-term equity in this type of matchup.

why are you flaming me?
i merely stated that a pal of mine (regardless of nickname) falls into the exact player type given in the description,and he loves to get tricky in the blinds with AA.
this could quite easily be the case here and our hero is miles in front.

It was a joke, meh i apologise if i offended you.

I would have just check / called the turn and probably check / called most bets on most rivers. I really disagree with the idea that playing the flop more aggressively would have turned our hand into a bluff. It's bvb and a tournament. The guy can seem as conservative as he likes but top pair is still the immortal nuts on the flop here always.

I think putting him on exactly K10 is lolololol too.

I prefer the re-pop on the flop. How many times does he have 44 or K4 here? I understand the call though...

Hands that beat you...

KT - Very possible
44 - Possible
K4 - Unlikely

Hands you beat that he might make this bet with

34 - Plausible
5h 6h - Plausible
KQ, KJ  - Have to be considered as possible but I dunno with the preflop action


I dunno man this is so borderline...

What's more likely the top 3 or the bottom 4? I'd argue they are quite close. I'd use all the timebank that's for sure. The hearts are kind of irrelevant apart from to define his hand. 60:40 in favour of folding here...