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Title: Tactical folding good or Bad Post by: The-Crow on August 31, 2008, 12:48:46 AM Hi mates,
When I get near the bubble say 5 players to go, is it wrong to fold a good hand to get to the money ? What do you do? Title: Re: Tactical folding good or Bad Post by: DungBeetle on August 31, 2008, 12:54:50 AM Depends on your stack and other stacks, but generally no given the way tournie payouts are structured. That said I folded AK on the bubble in the WSOP 5k event and got a roasting on here about it! :)
Title: Re: Tactical folding good or Bad Post by: bhoywonder on August 31, 2008, 01:15:24 AM sometimes its even wrong to fold a bad hand
you can take advantage if you have the stack If not it may be prudent to wait it out only if you can it all depends is the real answer on numerous things your stack size your 'M' chip average your image other's image prize money etc etc Title: Re: Tactical folding good or Bad Post by: The-Crow on August 31, 2008, 01:23:10 AM In the WSOP this year, many players left the tables near the bubble and went to the bar to stop them being tempted to play a hand. mind you the money started at $20,000
If I only have 5 blinds near the bubble I fold to the money. If I have more than than 5 blinds I only play against people with less chips than me If I have more than 10 blinds I play normal Title: Re: Tactical folding good or Bad Post by: bhoywonder on August 31, 2008, 01:30:05 AM In the WSOP this year, many players left the tables near the bubble and went to the bar to stop them being tempted to play a hand. mind you the money started at $20,000 If I only have 5 blinds near the bubble I fold to the money. If I have more than than 5 blinds I only play against people with less chips than me If I have more than 10 blinds I play normal you cant play normal with 10 blinds all the dynamics change around the bubble you need a lot more and normal play doesnt come into it stealing comes into it imo and people reading Title: Re: Tactical folding good or Bad Post by: Longy on August 31, 2008, 01:45:31 AM The op sounds like you are talking about sngs given we haven't hit the bubble with 5 left.
There are a few things to consider which have been outlined by Bhoywonder, by prize money he means payout structure i assume and us pedantic sngers don't use M but simple bbs as Harrington/ Magriel's M is designed for MTTs and doesn't crossover very well to sng payout structures. The payout structure in sngs are very non linear in the 50/30/20 format meaning getting all the chips isn't really the priority but maximising our equity (profit) is. This leads to unusual counterintuitive situations where in extreme examples folding kk can be correct on the bubble. Fortunately a couple of years ago ICM (Independent Chip Model) was conceived which allows to measure how much our chips were worth in any given situation in dollar value related to the payout structure. Using this and putting our opponents on hand ranges, allows to play as close to perfect poker as you get.Simply with less than 10bbs we are either fold or go all in. I use sngwiz (sngwiz.com) these days to practice my icm, though did use SNGPT previously. So after my inane rambling, is it correct to fold a big hand near the bubble? As with alot of poker it depends but by using ICM we can normally come with a decent conclusion. What i would say is that you should be pushing lot weaker hands than you are calling with and playing tight utg and v loose in the sb if folded to you. Title: Re: Tactical folding good or Bad Post by: ACE2M on August 31, 2008, 02:00:12 AM The op sounds like you are talking about sngs given we haven't hit the bubble with 5 left. There are a few things to consider which have been outlined by Bhoywonder, by prize money he means payout structure i assume and us pedantic sngers don't use M but simple bbs as Harrington/ Magriel's M is designed for MTTs and doesn't crossover very well to sng payout structures. The payout structure in sngs are very non linear in the 50/30/20 format meaning getting all the chips isn't really the priority but maximising our equity (profit) is. This leads to unusual counterintuitive situations where in extreme examples folding kk can be correct on the bubble. Fortunately a couple of years ago ICM (Independent Chip Model) was conceived which allows to measure how much our chips were worth in any given situation in dollar value related to the payout structure. Using this and putting our opponents on hand ranges, allows to play as close to perfect poker as you get.Simply with less than 10bbs we are either fold or go all in. I use sngwiz (sngwiz.com) these days to practice my icm, though did use SNGPT previously. So after my inane rambling, is it correct to fold a big hand near the bubble? As with alot of poker it depends but by using ICM we can normally come with a decent conclusion. What i would say is that you should be pushing lot weaker hands than you are calling with and playing tight utg and v loose in the sb if folded to you. sngs are dead now. in your situation if it means something to you then fold away, if your trying to play pro or maximise long term then you base decision on hands and situation rather than 'getting in the money'. Title: Re: Tactical folding good or Bad Post by: Longy on August 31, 2008, 02:20:38 AM The op sounds like you are talking about sngs given we haven't hit the bubble with 5 left. There are a few things to consider which have been outlined by Bhoywonder, by prize money he means payout structure i assume and us pedantic sngers don't use M but simple bbs as Harrington/ Magriel's M is designed for MTTs and doesn't crossover very well to sng payout structures. The payout structure in sngs are very non linear in the 50/30/20 format meaning getting all the chips isn't really the priority but maximising our equity (profit) is. This leads to unusual counterintuitive situations where in extreme examples folding kk can be correct on the bubble. Fortunately a couple of years ago ICM (Independent Chip Model) was conceived which allows to measure how much our chips were worth in any given situation in dollar value related to the payout structure. Using this and putting our opponents on hand ranges, allows to play as close to perfect poker as you get.Simply with less than 10bbs we are either fold or go all in. I use sngwiz (sngwiz.com) these days to practice my icm, though did use SNGPT previously. So after my inane rambling, is it correct to fold a big hand near the bubble? As with alot of poker it depends but by using ICM we can normally come with a decent conclusion. What i would say is that you should be pushing lot weaker hands than you are calling with and playing tight utg and v loose in the sb if folded to you. sngs are dead now. in your situation if it means something to you then fold away, if your trying to play pro or maximise long term then you base decision on hands and situation rather than 'getting in the money'. Erm given you have quoted me, im not sure which part relates to my post and which bit to the op. Soooooo "sngs are dead now" - Sngs are tougher now than has ever been the case, same applies to every form of holdem. Dead is the wrong word to use imo, solved well yes to a degree, beatable at every level they sure are and while no one is killing the $500 games for 15% roi like on Party in 05', there is money to be made. In fact if i was to advise a complete newbie to poker, how to make a profit the quickest i would point them towards sngs and teach them icm. With some form of inbuilt talent (ie they weren't completely clueless with cards and maths) they would be up and running in online poker in no time. The OP is clearly a beginner so this would apply. As for decision being how much the money means to op, this is poor advise imo. If the money means too much ie they aren't rolled for the games, move down to game they are rolled for. Then they can make every decision based on the individual hand, not on how much it means to them. Title: Re: Tactical folding good or Bad Post by: ACE2M on August 31, 2008, 02:39:04 AM The op sounds like you are talking about sngs given we haven't hit the bubble with 5 left. There are a few things to consider which have been outlined by Bhoywonder, by prize money he means payout structure i assume and us pedantic sngers don't use M but simple bbs as Harrington/ Magriel's M is designed for MTTs and doesn't crossover very well to sng payout structures. The payout structure in sngs are very non linear in the 50/30/20 format meaning getting all the chips isn't really the priority but maximising our equity (profit) is. This leads to unusual counterintuitive situations where in extreme examples folding kk can be correct on the bubble. Fortunately a couple of years ago ICM (Independent Chip Model) was conceived which allows to measure how much our chips were worth in any given situation in dollar value related to the payout structure. Using this and putting our opponents on hand ranges, allows to play as close to perfect poker as you get.Simply with less than 10bbs we are either fold or go all in. I use sngwiz (sngwiz.com) these days to practice my icm, though did use SNGPT previously. So after my inane rambling, is it correct to fold a big hand near the bubble? As with alot of poker it depends but by using ICM we can normally come with a decent conclusion. What i would say is that you should be pushing lot weaker hands than you are calling with and playing tight utg and v loose in the sb if folded to you. sngs are dead now. in your situation if it means something to you then fold away, if your trying to play pro or maximise long term then you base decision on hands and situation rather than 'getting in the money'. Erm given you have quoted me, im not sure which part relates to my post and which bit to the op. Soooooo "sngs are dead now" - Sngs are tougher now than has ever been the case, same applies to every form of holdem. Dead is the wrong word to use imo, solved well yes to a degree, beatable at every level they sure are and while no one is killing the $500 games for 15% roi like on Party in 05', there is money to be made. In fact if i was to advise a complete newbie to poker, how to make a profit the quickest i would point them towards sngs and teach them icm. With some form of inbuilt talent (ie they weren't completely clueless with cards and maths) they would be up and running in online poker in no time. The OP is clearly a beginner so this would apply. As for decision being how much the money means to op, this is poor advise imo. If the money means too much ie they aren't rolled for the games, move down to game they are rolled for. Then they can make every decision based on the individual hand, not on how much it means to them. sngs are a good learning ground for mtts but imo any player or aspiring player playing anything but cash is crazy. If moorman turned his hand to cash he could improve his roi so hugely it's silly. if they are playing out of their roll then a cash at good stakes is a result so why not gurantee a return then get busy with the chance to win big. Title: Re: Tactical folding good or Bad Post by: bhoywonder on August 31, 2008, 02:54:28 AM i win at sng's
but lose with cash games i haven't solved that little enigma yet Title: Re: Tactical folding good or Bad Post by: thetank on August 31, 2008, 02:59:33 AM Like with most poker questions, there's no easy answer. Sometimes you gotta play 90% of hands on the bubble, taking advantage of your stack and tight opponents who want to cash. Sometimes you have to sit there and play less than 10% of hands, when you have a middling stack and another guy is short.
As for what to do when. It all comes down to some complicated math. Nobody can realistically work it out at the table, but through computer models and repetition you can develop a pretty good feel for the best thing to do in any given situation to make the most money in the long run. http://pregopoker.com is a link to a site with a bubble trainer, where you can play example hands and it'll help you develop the skills you need. They still have a trial option I believe. It's a bit of work, but necessary for pwning any kind mid-high level STTs online today. Title: Re: Tactical folding good or Bad Post by: The-Crow on August 31, 2008, 03:03:26 AM Thanks guys,
If the prize money starts at £250 or more its tempting to fold to the money then play to win. Is that OK ? Title: Re: Tactical folding good or Bad Post by: thetank on August 31, 2008, 03:03:41 AM i win at sng's but lose with cash games i haven't solved that little enigma yet I have the same problem. I reckon there's two solutions. #1 Don't play cash. #2 Learn to play cash. I'm going for #1 at the moment. If I were looking into #2 then investing in a training site is probably what I'd do. The general consensus at the moment is that Cardrunners is a pretty awesome site for cash training videos. Title: Re: Tactical folding good or Bad Post by: thetank on August 31, 2008, 03:06:20 AM Thanks guys, If the prize money starts at £250 or more its tempting to fold to the money then play to win. Is that OK ? probably bad for long term profit if you are playing seriously, but ok if you are just playing for fun and a little profit. Title: Re: Tactical folding good or Bad Post by: FuglyBaz on August 31, 2008, 05:31:50 PM How many people who play WSOP actually have proper bankrolls to play the events? I'm sure a lot are out of their bankrolls there. Only an opinion, it's just my perception.
Title: Re: Tactical folding good or Bad Post by: MC on August 31, 2008, 08:41:35 PM In theory, no you shouldn't.
But if you've satellited into an event for like $50 and the bubble is like $10,000 and your chip stack is such that you can make it through the bubble no problem, then you can't really argue with it. Title: Re: Tactical folding good or Bad Post by: free0bird on September 03, 2008, 01:10:11 AM well,
if your bankroll management skills let you down and your heart said play it, then id say you have a good hand chances are your going to get called. if there is lower stack players then yes wait for it. if you are the lowest stack player theyre assuming your going to push with any two cards so you have more chances to double up by playing your good hands and folding teh bad. if you get unlucky - thats poker take it on the chin. chances are you double up and are in better shape. and they'll be more wary and you could steal more around the bubble. i'd rather bubble with a good hand than be blinded out with a bad hand. |