blonde poker forum

Reading 2+2 forums and came across this thread which sparked alot of mixed opinions from some top players  on how the hand was played, in particular the turn and river action

See what you think, anyone put Moorman on a hand?.... If you the player below do you bet the turn?  Do you call the bet on the river?



"I'm obviously not used to play these big things but I'd still appreciate some feedback.
Moorman has been running over the table and is raising a ton of hands. I prolly appear like an inexperienced live player with some online experience who has somehow satellited in and isn't familiar with these stakes (which is 100% correct ldo).
My table image should be fairly tight but I did resteal vs him or make moves every once in a while.
I'm not sure of the exact bet sizes but the general idea should be right.

My stack: ~40k, Moorman covers. Blinds 200/400/25.

I have QsQc in MP2 and make it 1100, Moorman makes it 3500 from the SB, I call.
Flop 8d6h5d he cbets 5200, I call.
Turn Jh, he checks I check.
River Js, he bets 10500 (this is exact), I call.

Thoughts on every street?"



I couldn't pretend to know Moormans game too well, but imagine him to be pretty aggro, I quite like the way the way this guy played the hand especially as they 100bb deep??

This is the 2+2 thread....

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/87/high-stakes-mtt/wsope-hand-1-qq-vs-moorman-310667/

4 bet pre

pointless, essentially turns QQ into a bluff.  Peeling in pos > 4betting.

fwiw i play it the same on every street.  And probs get KK/AA put in my eye.

peel and play it like your ahead yeah, but why double check turn with draws out and also no raise on flop - river is call / fold.

pot control.

i read that thread and evryone was saying how moorman Vbets 99/TT on the river, but I guess I cant see it... the guy comes off as a live nit and has called a 3bet pre and a chunky bet on the flop, AND has checked the turn, which given the pre/flop action defo indicates some kinda pot control a vast % of the time, so I jst cant see how in this spot moorman can vbet 99/TT and expect to get called by worse. Obv if he was playing aginst someone like flushy/pab, it would be different.


i also think that tourney poker has got a bit silly with regards to not 4betting QQ/JJ etc preflop , in a few months im sure everyone will be 4betting those hands again and all will be right with the world.

if a 'nitty sat winner' 4bets moor pre w/QQ, how is he ever gonna get value from worse?!  or did you just mean in general not this specific spot?

I play it the same way.

yeah sorry, i mean in general.. it seems like people never 4bet unless its either AA/KK or complete air,  so the function of that 4bet range makes the oppos subsequent actions a lot different then if you can include QQ/JJ/TT etc in it. It just seems so unbalanced somehow.

In this specific spot I dont even think its that terrible, if you assume that moorman is a much better player, and if you assume that moormans 3bet range is sufficiently wide, then 4betting might well only get worse hands folding/better hands calling, but it also avoids our hero making wrong decisions on later streets that could cost him a lot more then winning the pot right here wins him... and theres a non zero chance (although its not admittedly that high) that moorman blows up and QQ gets it in in great shape!

If i am in this pot vs moomin i can probably river shove for value, the player in question meh i dunno moomin aint bluffing here often i probably fold.

I think the guy played his queens very well up until the turn. I don't get why you would check the turn though. The reason you flat pre and flat on the flop is to bet the turn when it's checked to you. Betting the turn gets you in control of the hand and shows the table how it goes when they try and play back at you. I think he must call the river because of that check but he should expect to see 3 jacks and lose. This will be a fitting punishment from the poker gods for checking the turn.

what do you do if moorman sets sail and sends his stack in when you bet the turn?

I love you

he's been playing  9h Th a lot the moment though

Facing that situation with a good hand is a better proposition than checking because I'm scared.

I know

is that a call or fold

Give him a chance to write a 14 paragraph monologue first man!

i did that the first time! sat waitig for 20 minutes expecting the wuthering heights version of self defense, and instead all i got was a one liner. The ache in my heart will go away one day hopefully.

He folded

Surely if Moorman shows up with a Jack then the twoplustwoer played it pretty well?

I thought he did play it pretty well. I just don't like the checking on the turn part.

its real easy to bet turns when you know your opponent is going to fold!

If we bet the turn its for value, not to make him fold!  Checking the turn is much better, it induces bluffs/lighter v bets on the river.

you my boi!!!!!!!

i think betting the turn has a lot of merit in this spot, i was jst marvelling at the wordsmith coz when i asked him what he'd do if his oppo shoved in, he evaded the question and said that the oppo folded when we bet.

Does Villain expect us to bet when he checks? I wouldn't expect so considering the image of scared money. So I would say the J hit his hand and he wants a river. If Villain doesn't expect us to bet I really think betting is in order. Checking behind is a good strat if Villain thinks his oppo bets more often imo.

Also getting to showdown gives the table an info bonanza and this should be considered.

More and more with everyday.

[ ] instacall river bet
[ ] insta fold

• quite drunk so missed both boxes

that took ages and i still screwed it up

FYP

tyvm

The more I think about it, the more I think the river is a fold. If Moorman is on a bluff/draw he's more likely to fire the turn and commit his opponent with a decent bet like 14k/15k getting the latter to fold lots of small/medium pairs that he's losing to at that point as there's no guarantee OR will bet turn if Moorman checks. By checking turn with a set/AA/KK it gives him much more chance of extracting a bet from 99/TT/QQ on the river.

Hero played this well, raising almost any street without the initiative pre against an aggro opponent is pretty bad i think here.

1) to let moomin bluff/v-bet worse than QQ LDO on the riv
2) moorman is quite capable of CRAI with hands that QQ beats but cannot possibly call

imo hero played it fine.

What did they both have?

Yes buddy I understand the general concept. But the snag in this hand is that I can't see how Villain thinks Hero is going to bet. So why would he check? Hero is seen as tight scared money and you can see the way he plays his hand is seemingly very passive. There is no indication that if Moorman checks this guy is going to come firing after the pot. If he did think his opponent would bet then he would have been wrong because we know the guy did actually check behind. I think Villain expects the check, and this makes me think he doesn't have A-A or K-K. But it does make me think he wants to see the river for free because the J hit his hand in some way. If Villain expects and wants Hero to check, then I think Hero should bet.

Agreed that checking gets Villain bluffing on the river but the downside is Villain may no longer be bluffing. At any rate there are going to be a lot of river cards we hate and give us a tough decision. A lot of people are now saying fold when Villain fires on the river here, but this is what we wanted to happen isn't it? So checking the turn isn't a strat without it's problems either. I really don't think he vbets with worse than queens either. And I don't think he's giving up on the hand. So why check the turn? I agree 9-10 works.

we are checking the river to let moorman fire at the pot again, with a bluff, as im with you on the fact that agaisnt this oppo i cant see him v-betting worse than QQ in this spot. We are checking to let moorman Bluff at the pot again. If we are beat on the river we are likely beat on the turn so have saved chips by checking behind. If moorman has caught trips on the river its just unlucky. Whose to say that if the river bricked and moorman checked that the guy wouldnt have v-bet himself which is more than likely. So the plan on the turn vs a Known LAG is to just check and induce a bluff from moorman, or if we are beaten then keep the pot smallish.

My money is on moomin having KK or AA i doubt moomin is 3betting light from the small blind this deepstacked knowing that oppo will probably call at least, and he will play the rest of the pot OOP.

thats just my slant on it.

I was on Chris' table for most of day 2 - he musta been dealt a whole lot of AA's and KK's if this theory is to hold...

What did Mr Moorman hold?

I had the jack and the 7 of different suits

Will write a longer reply later but got to keep this brief as dont wanna be late for the 2nd day of ept london.

On the turn I was check raising all in. I actually felt my opponent was 1 of the few ppl playing back at me light so I felt a float was a decent part of his flop range...

QQ is very close to a bet call on the turn but I will also check raise all in with a lot of made hands here 2 as I perhaps wrongly felt that He was betting the turn a high % of the time. Tbh on this river tt is prob the only worse hand that I value bet and I cant see myself bluffing here very often at all. However, I think the op played his hand pretty well here and was just unlucky.

jesus this one thread has taught me shit loads about how some of you guys think!