blonde poker forum

2 players in after the flop
Player A bets 2500 all-in but he has acted out of turn and the bet is returned to him.
Player B bets 2500 and turns his cards over before Player A has the chance to act!
Card Room Supervisor is called over for a ruling

Hi,

IMO,

If the player said "call" then the bet stands.

If the player bet after the the out of turn bet was retracted then the player gets the option.

I hope that make sense?

thanks
Steve

Player A's bet has been returned so must mean his out of turn bet didn't stand, so now Player B has put Player A all in but Player A still has the option to call or fold still so Player B has shown his hand.

Therefore i would rule that Player A who made the bet out of turn has the option seeing player B's hand if he wants to call or fold.

As the all in bet was returned to him.

If Player A's All in out of turn must stand then the hand would play out as normal.

Hope this makes sense LOL!

Ideally a ruling should have been called for before player B acted so that everyone knew where they stood.  As things stand, I agree with Girgy.

if a player acts out of turn it is binding unless there is an aggresive action before him. The guy now bets so the player has the option of calling allin or folding. The guy who has bet and turned his hand over (clearly a mistake as he thinks he is calling the bet) is the one who could get a penalty for exposing his hand (would be harsh but thats what most sets of rules say). Even though its the other guys fault for betting out of turn then he isnt penalised in fact he has got the benefit of seeing the other guys cards before deciding what to do.

Any out of turn action must stand.

Two players left with cards.

* Player A bets 2500 all-in but he has acted out of turn and the bet is returned to him.

Having gone all-in out of turn, he is now all-in irrelevant of what happens with Player B. In this case, Player B puts in the 2500 and the cards are on their backs. Player A does not have, nor should he be afforded, the opportunity to fold. He already declared that he is all in and all out of turn action must stand.

* Player B bets 2500 and turns his cards over before Player A has the chance to act.

He has called the out of turn action and assumed correctly the cards are on their backs.

totally incorrect under every set of rules (tda, gukpt,wsop etc). The bet stands unless there is an aggresive action before him. If it had been a limp then that would be different and the limp would have to stand but because he has raised he doesnt have to call or do anything. He has the option of calling or folding thanks to the other guy raising to 2500.

What you should do if someone bets out of turn is check as the bet then has to stand. If you call the bet also has to stand. If you raise it opens up the fold option of the out of turn better.

That's incorrect.

#1  If you bet 1000 out of turn then the player who was meant to act first makes it 2500 to play you can either call or fold for that round of betting.

#2  If you go all in, you are all in. What the other player does has no bearing. You can't have someone go all in out of turn, you check and then he has to check also. That doesn't happen.


GUKPT - #35  All action out of turn goes. A player who bets out of turn will be penalised for that round only. (As I point out in example #1)

I am not sure on the WSOP rules but the Americans have a lot of different rules so I am not overly concerned if they do it a different way.

I'm pretty sure that at my local (DTD) the action stands if there is no aggressive action before it as Ariston says.

Therefore if player B wants to call the all in he needs to check first then call.

If he goes all in then player A gets his money back and gets to decide what to do. This is made much easier for him if he can see the other guys cards.

That is not aggressive action. Ariston and EvilPie are 100% correct

If he bets, the out of turn action must still stand. Going to clarify it with a colleague.

#2  If you go all in, you are all in. What the other player does has no bearing. You can't have someone go all in out of turn, you check and then he has to check also. That doesn't happen.


you aint been to my local

any out of turn play means you can only call ort fold afterwards although i aint sure if its been changed since the new rules went up a couple of weeks ago

This is a really good idea. From what you say if you play out of turn you're not allowed to make any more aggressive action.

That would put a stop to out of turn plays pretty fast I'd say.

Going all in out of turn is shocking play and should be punished either by Iron's method above or even having your hand mucked.

Even if it's an honest mistake it's one that you shouldn't make because it gives a massive advantage.

Well in our cardroom the bet stands, a player betting out of turn is held to that, the only exception is if player raises more than the out of turn bet. Which wouldnt apply here as he is all in anyway.

And just to add showing your cards in our cardroom is allowed lol you get a "warning" but hand is still live you just cant bet only call.....

Player A has the option to do what he likes, though in this case he obviously cannot raise as he has no more chips to raise with. If he wishes to fold he may do so.

Player B should technically recieve a warning/penalty here for exposing his cards, but this would be a little harsh given he clearly doesn't understand the rule.

If a player bets out of turn (whether the bet is all in or not) then the bet stands, unless there is an agressive action before him (opening a round of betting, or raising). If such action takes place he has the option to now fold, call, or raise. If the action before him is non-aggressive (check/call) then his bet stands.

In this instance Player B should have checked, which would of forced Player A to go all in.

I went and checked because I hate being told that I'm wrong. I'm not.

All out of turn actions stand. The actions of other players whether they raise, go all in or merely call are all irrelevant. If you go all in, you're all in. End of.

Depends which card room your in mate!!

Well, I am going by the GUKPT/Grosvenor rules.

relaedgc is right here, the action has not changed to player A his initial bet of 2500 (although out of turn) has not been exceeded so he must call, it does state that in gukpt / grosvenor rules because I wrote the lil duckers.

sigh. why is it that when what we really need is a universal set of rules grosvenor have to write a different set of rules from the rest of the world?


"Verbal Declarations in turn are binding. Action out of turn may be binding, and will be binding if the action to that player has not changed, a check, call, or fold is not considered action changing. "

is the tda and wsop rule and works fine for everyone else

But the action to player A has changed. Instead of betting into an unopened pot he is now facing a bet of 2500. He now has the right to reevaluate what to do, and has even been given the information of what hand he is up against.

I've just looked at the GUKPT rules and it does cover this:

"Verbal declarations in turn are binding, verbal declarations out of turn will be binding if the action to that player has not changed when it is their turn to act, check, call or fold is not considered an action change."

In this case player A did not check/call/fold - he bet, this is action changing.

They also have a rule which is very ambigously worded:

"All action out of turn goes. A player who bets out of turn will be penalised for that round only."

I'm not sure what that's supposed to mean as the first quoted rule covers this situation well enough.

well thats the penalty for acting out of turn, pay attention to the game and you dont get penalised.

I clarified this very topic at the GUKPT. The Tournament directors stated quite firmly that all out of turn action is binding. If you declare all in out of turn, you're always going to be all in.

As for them always "changing their rules", I much prefer theirs to the WSOP. Whereby people have won pots with no cards and pulled other ridiculous stunts. They've got a good set of TD's and the tournaments always run smoothly without issue.