blonde poker forum

The action is on a player who is checking his cards without being too cautious about it and the player to his right who has just bet sees one of the cards (after he has bet though) and announces to the table that he's seen it. 

The player who's being careless with his cards has had a few beers and says, "well OK you've seen one you can see both" and lays both cards face up on the table for everyone to see and then starts to make his decision about whether to call, raise, fold or throw up.

Is his hand now dead as he has intentionally exposed his hand? 

It's a card club not a casino, but the idea is to make the games resemble a casino tournament as closely as possible. 

hand dead imo

can only call or fold for the rest of the hand as far as i am aware.

That was what I decided, although I thought that only applied when the hand is exposed accidentally, not when it's a p*ssed bloke being a prat..so I felt I should have just ruled it dead. 

exactly, far from an accident so hand dead.

Time penalty

if I read it right the bloke is facing a bet, his action has been to show his cards so without any verbal decleration of what he is doing , he has exposed his cards, so hand is dead.

I agree with Flushy and much prefer the TDA ruling...

7	Penalties and Disqualification	A penalty MAY be invoked if a player exposes any card with action pending....
31	Exposing Cards	A player who exposes his cards with action pending may incur a penalty, but will not have a dead hand. The penalty will begin at the end of the hand

Had the player, who had bet, seen both cards AND knew he had the hand crushed would he have been so keen to reveal he had seen any cards? Probaby not.

yet another case of a grosvenor rule differing from the rest of the world?

hand is never dead

tda rules as above

wsop rule '50. A player exposing his or her cards with action pending may incur a penalty, but will not have a dead hand. The penalty will begin at the end of the hand. All players at the table are entitled to see the exposed card(s), if requested'

robert's rules also the same

Its not a Grosvenor rule

At Luton, deleiberate exposing of ones cards is not "hand declared dead" but possible time penalites and the player can make no action through the course of the hand..check/call only

You can only check or call for the rest of the hand, if I recall.

so where's your 'hand dead' rule from then photomch?

there r no set rules....

was asked to give a ruling imo "hand dead" thats warning enough imo

thats waht i think should happen, not set rule anywhere its what it used to be at grosvenor until we changed last year

what do you mean there are no set rules? the 2 major sets of rules used worldwide as well as wsop rules all specifically state that the hand is not dead. there's no ambiguity here

Well i wasnt playing so who could it of been, Wino or Pickles is my guess?
Cant see i time penalty working, i would have ruled the same as you Rich.

Correct  :)up

Where does all this talk of "can only call or fold for the rest of the hand" come from?

My view: Hand not dead and will play out as normal. Time penalty to be imposed after the hand. Others have already quoted the appropriate rules so I won't repeat :)

It is to guard against those that do this is an "angle-shoot", or for example bet out of turn....another case where the offending player is held to check call

The hand plays on but by not being able to make action for the rest of the hand he loses further advantage from the "angle" if indeed it was one

What rules say this and where?

Robert's Rules (worded slightly differently than the TDA rules quoted) say:

22. Showing cards from a live hand during the action injures the rights of other players still competing in an event, who wish to see contestants eliminated. A player in a multihanded pot may not show any cards during a deal. Heads-up, a player may not show any cards unless the event has only two remaining players, or is winner-take-all. If a player deliberately shows a card, the player may be penalized (but his hand will not be ruled dead). Verbally stating one’s hand during the play may be penalized.


Similar during the betting out of turn example, a penalty may be imposed after the hand. The only penalty during the hand is that your action is binding unless there's aggressive action. There's nothing written about only being allowed to check/call.

It is the procedure followed in the G casino in which I play, and a few others I am aware of

How many times have people seen a time penalt give in a comp in the UK?

Someone was given one in the rendezvous he kicked up such a fuss that he ended up getting disqualified, lol

at the wsope i exposed my hand after i thought i had won a pot
but i hadnt noticed a player had called my bet

ruling was sought

i was allowed to call or fold in future rounds of betting but not to raise

my oppo was kind enough to expose his hand too having seen my hand he knew if he had hit i wouldnt of been calling anyway and if he didnt he couldnt bluff me off the hand

happened at equal chance two weeks.

this is nonsense tbh. by not allowing the player to make positive action you are penalising the innocent player here as you are taking away their ability to make a raise for the duration of the pot

regularly at gutshot, never in a casino

? the innocent player can raise,do what he likes

the player who has exposed his cards is held to check/call

How can he raise when the other person can't bet/raise? Assuming it's heads up there'll be at most 1 bet per round.

People exposing cards should be punished, but the punishment laid down in the rules is a penalty after the hand - hand dead, check/call, harm the other players.

As an example:

Board reads A269Q - no flushes

Player A holds AA
Player B holds QQ

Player A leads out on the river
Player B for whatever reason exposes QQ
If hand is dead then Player A has won no further money
If can only check/call then Player A only wins the bet which player B will call
If he can raise then Player A stands to make more money, as in this example the QQ will surely raise.

well its not necessarily heads up....

if it is heads up the innocent player can bet.

Don't shoot the messenger. It is the rule enforced in Grosvenors, well at leastr some Grosvenors   

The grosvenor I used to play at was Moortown. They actually had a rule sheet which contradicted many of the enforced rules. Check/call after betting out of turn was one of the rules they enforced contary to their own set of rules. We pointed this out and got them ruling correctly afterwards.

doesn't matter if it's hu or not though rich, if we're 3 to the flop, I'm oop with a hand I would normally cr and one of the other players is hyper aggro and will almost always bet a flop if it's checked to him then I'm suffering because of a ruling that he can't make positive action, my chance of a successful cr are now much lower. he should have all options whether hu or not and I will make the correct play against him having seen his hand. he should then get a penalty after the hand

I assume that the no positive action rule was brought in by TDs who were too weak to impose time penalties and wanted to be seen to be doing something

are you on the new luton players panel? if so is there any chance you could find out if grosvenor have any plans to standardise rules across the chain and if so what's the odds of them being tda?

the plan, in train through other auspices with which I am involved, is to standarise UK rules across all the national chains

This is by necessity a medium rather than a short term plan

I will double check the current application of this rule though in Grosvenors and revert.

cheers mate