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When I read on tikays diary thread of the world war 2 bomber at the RAF museum I remembered about my grandads bits and pieces that mum had kept hold of after he died about 25 years ago , I knew he had been a navigator on Halifax bombers during the war and wondered if there might be an interesting photo or two.
So off I went to my mum and dads and came away with a box full of stuff:- birth certificates, death certificates, wills, old sepia photographs of people I don't recognise. All interesting things in their own right but not what I was looking for.
At the bottom of the box was a manilla folder and a quick peek inside revealed a treasure trove of photographs, letters from the RAF, an exercise book on navigation by the stars, medical records and another folder.
Inside this are what look like the navigational notes of 17 bombing runs he flew in 1942 immaculately detailed with all the information of the flight from take off to releasing the bombs and landing back at base and reading some of the things he has written in them made my hair stand on end.

I will post some photos over the next few days , here's the first few.


(http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/9315/jforjohnnyandcrewaugustry7.jpg)

102 Squadron "J" for Johnny and crew August 1942, Gramps is 3rd from left.


(http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/4593/015cf0.jpg)

One of the flight logs from a sortie
They are written in pencil so they are quite hard to photograph I will get some better copies later.

(http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/2776/020ep1.jpg)

Here's a close up of one, Navigator P/O Hargreaves is my Grandad , The target is Saarbrucken and the Special Orders details the bombs they were carrying

Fantastic.

Wonderful stuff, Wader, thank you.

I am going back to Duxford (Imperial War Museum) Flying Musuem soon, and Red, & Simon Trumper, & maybe a few others are coming along - I'm trying to get round to organising it right now. (Waiting for Red & Aces to make their mind up, sigh). I must ask Compo (he lives Local-ish to Duxford), Karabiner (he remembers WW1) & I think Kev might be interested, too. It's a fabulous tribute to our WW11 Airmen & Women.

I believe they had a Halifax Bomber there - or something very similar - I will get some pics when we go. You'd be welcome to come along, by the way.

Fantastic Wader Leg, I don't know if you would be interested but you may want to preserve a little bit of history by adding his name and the photos here http://www.wartimememories.co.uk/allied/royalairforce/102sqd-raf.html and if you delve into some of the personal stories and photographs, there are many unknown names, maybe you could fill some gaps.

wow great stuff wader please show us more.

and tony please add me to your list, i love anything to do with ww2 and although its not that far from me i have never been to duxford.

Excellent pics and story. You can never get enough stories about the wars :)

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/ca/British_Empire_Union_WWI_poster.jpg)

Something i find amazing from that is those flight logs are nearly identical to the ones pilots use today.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

Love it Wader ... post more please.

Tikay, im in for the trip, though you do know we will NEVER get Tom out of the "working sheds" once he sets foot in them.

He'll be in there all day!

But I imagine we'll all wander around independently - the place is massive, extends for over a mile I'd say, with different buildings, hangers & workshops for different things, & a bunch of themed cafes.

The UK Building is beautifully arranged - a first floor with a balcony all the way round, looking down onto dozens of old aeroplanes, all parked wing to wing, & you can then go down & inspect them, walk under them, even get in some of them. It's awesome.

They also do "pleasure flights" (a misnomer if ever I saw one) in 70 year-old single-engined bi-planes, taking off & landing on a grass runway. Shudder.

We really must go & do this. A sort of blonde Old Codgers Outing.

Just to tease you......

Tilts me up Lancasters and Halifax but no-one remembers the Stirling!

There you go, now stop sulking.

The trip sounds a great idea Tony, let me know when you sort a date out.
I had seen that site dik and wondered about emailing whoever runs it, there's some great info on there, I'm definitely going to get in touch with some of the forums dedicated to this sort of stuff.
I got the impression that the Halifax's relationship to the Lancaster was the same as that of the Hurricane and Spitfire, the Lancs and the Spitfires getting all the glory. One thing i've found while searching for info was that the Halifax crew had a higher survival rate if the plane was shot down, as it was easier to exit a Halifax due to the positioning of the escape hatches, the Lancaster was just designed to carry the biggest bombs the furthest distance and the designer of the plane actually started by digging a 30ft long hole in the ground to represent the bomb bay and designed a plane around the hole. Having said that the chances of bomber crews surviving were pretty slim whichever plane you flew. 55,000 killed 10,000 taken POW out of 150,000 personnel.
460 Squadron crewed by Australians had around 200 aircrew at any one time and lost over 1000 men during the war, in effect wiping out the entire station 5 times over.

For any given 100 aircrew in Bomber Command, 1939-1945,the statistical breakdown was:

Killed on operations 51
Killed in crashes in England 9
Seriously injured 3
Prisoner of War 12
Evaded capture 1
Survived unharmed 24


I need to get these in some sort of order timeframe wise here's some random ones until I get sorted, I've photographed everything in black and white as the writing seems to show better.


Do they still use these Flushy?




(http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/1143/protractorph3.jpg)




This seems so stereotypical of the RAF it looks like it could be off a filmset




(http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/5162/bikesrw6.jpg)



From another log, reading this makes me wonder just how close he came to not coming back


(http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/3562/032wv0.jpg)

Thanks Wader - I adiore that middle pic. And almost everybody has a ciggie on!

For any given 100 aircrew in Bomber Command, 1939-1945,the statistical breakdown was:

Killed on operations 51
Killed in crashes in England 9
Seriously injured 3
Prisoner of War 12
Evaded capture 1
Survived unharmed 24

What sobering stats they are.

He enjoyed his Rugby

(http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/5148/026ij3.jpg)       (http://img240.imageshack.us/img240/9895/004vu0.jpg)
RAF V Royal Marines April 1942

(http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/1161/014vb3.jpg)

One from before the war, turning out for Calder Vale RUFC season 36/37

Which one is he ??

1st player in kit on back row right hand side for Calder Vale, no idea on the RAF ones  .

Loving these pictures - keep them coming, please.

Nice one, Kind of scary to look at those smiling faces in the team pic, and wonder just how many of those lads in the picture lost their lives for their country.

My Grandad was born in Burnley in 1912, 
Here's a certificate he was awarded in 1924
(http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/9138/img0241tl3.jpg)


                                     and one from the Temperance Union in 1925,


(http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/6272/img0240mw4.jpg)   
they didn't leave a lasting impression on him though as I remember him being an avid homebrewer

(http://img376.imageshack.us/img376/3561/img0219na1.jpg)
I don't know who this is but he is the owner of a rather splendid blazer. 

By 1940 he was working for the Post Office as a Sorting Clerk/Telegraphist. Here's a letter asking the head postmaster for permission to apply for recruitment as a wireless operator/gunner.

(http://img129.imageshack.us/img129/8466/022yk5.jpg)

And the Postmasters reply

(http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/5699/img0236bq3.jpg)

Did he get the Job?

This is a lovely thread.  Please keep it going.

We shall see

 This was his next correspondence
(http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/840/img0230jf4.jpg)


(http://img352.imageshack.us/img352/2378/img0231zi1.jpg)(http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/6472/img0232vd3.jpg)

Real heroes.

That is all.

(http://img397.imageshack.us/img397/6172/img0259ap1.jpg)

Next up was his medical, bit of a pang of guilt posting this, even though he's not here it still seems bad form to post someones intimate details for all to see.


Thanks for the words of encouragement.

Next are a couple of letters regarding the length of time it was taking for him to be enlisted if that's the right word, he seems impatient to get stuck in...

(http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/9036/img0235te0.jpg)(http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/3964/021ac1.jpg)

He seems keen, he was married with a child at this point.

my gramps  was the youngest old contemptible still alive in about 1990,,,,


hang on let me get this right.,.,.,there was a big thing on the news about him.,.,.,
here goes.,.,.,he was the youngest soilder who was still alive (in about 1990 ish ) that had fought in the battle of the somme.,.,.
he was 14 years 9 months old when he went to war,he had lied about his age,and around 1990 ish he was still alive
i think he was 88,,,he died at the age of 91 and my nan went on to be 101,,,,

when i think about this i should know a lot more about it.,.,i will ask my dad tommorrow
they were made diffrent years ago.....

Such an interesting thread.

just been on this site reading .,.,wow.,.wow.,.,wow.,.,old letters ect .,.,old diaries,.,.,
www.military-genealogy.com   dont look if you cant stand a lump in your throat.,.,.

www.firstworldwar.com


i cant stop reading about it now.,..,

Got any photos Sofa, I'd love to see them.



(http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/9116/001zy0.jpg)

This is the earliest photo I've got of him in uniform I think, no date on the back though but his face looks freshest in this one.

                          (http://img390.imageshack.us/img390/3219/img0214oz4.jpg)                                                    (http://img119.imageshack.us/img119/7765/img0216gy3.jpg)
These are written in the back of his paybook, there are no records from Babbacombe to AirCrew Receiving Centre London.

Next stop Dumfries for Observer Training so he must have changed his mind about being a wireless operator/gunner and decided to try for the navigators role.

Amazing stuff Wader, thanks for sharing.

Geo

Brilliant brilliant stuff.

 I was in our city shopping centre today with my youngest son when the two minute silence was announced. With the exception of a few mindless and thoughtless idiots who carried on shopping, it was observed magnificently by every age group. Looking around people looked like statues standing perfectly still then when the two minutes were up it was as if someone pressed the pause button on the remote as they all moved about there business. Very moving.

(http://img390.imageshack.us/img390/5272/img0210lb1.jpg) (http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/6731/img0211wr1.jpg)
 Can anyone explain whats happening here, am I right in assuming he is trying to guess a planes altitude from the ground?

(http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/1589/img0204dg3.jpg)
The front cover, great motto.

Wader ... this is really taking a bizarre turn for me ...

After my Parents divorced, my mother met and married a Hargreaves, from Burnley. I got to know most of his family over the years and indeed I lived in Burnley for a good few years and both of my boys were born there. 

I will have to get digging and see if there is a family connection here .... probably isnt as Hargreaves is quite a common name in Lancashire.

PS even spookier, I lived just off Brunshaw road, and walked down it every day to get to work.

absolutely fantastic thread!

old codgers trip to duxford ftw!

Just found this thread, fascinating stuff Wader  :)up

I *think* he is calibrating his sextant, which they used to calculate their position based on alignment to various cosmic bodies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sextant

Great thread. Fascinating stuff.

Cheers Div, I'd like to say I understand it after reading that lol.
Well at least we won't be blood relatives if there is a connection Kev (where's the "phew" smiley gone?). His father was called William who worked in the mills, he had a sister Muriel who moved to Wales and a cousin Harold who died in the late 70's. Harold would probably be the link if any but like you say there's loads of Hargreaves' round here.

 I'm glad people are enjoying it, thanks.


Here's another photo,
(http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/1014/011ly5.jpg)

 "C" Flight No3 Course Dumfries Oct 1941-May 1942
 He's 2nd on the left, back row

(http://img125.imageshack.us/img125/7828/img0221rc1.jpg)
Another rugby photo, "Dumfries April '42" He's middle row 1st on left
A lot of them have dates on the back which is helpful



(http://img388.imageshack.us/img388/1450/013lv7.jpg)There is nothing on this one though but I'm guessing it's around the same time.                 (http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/1071/005zb5.jpg)
nothing on the back of this photo either but the inscription is "1652 BCJ  RAF Marston Moor Bombing Trophy"

 
(http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/1903/029iv6.jpg)  he was based at RAF Pocklington when these flights took place

(http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/6563/007al6.jpg)

 "Pocklington 6/9/42 5000ft"

This letter had been around the houses before he got it! (http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/6856/img0260bu7.jpg)

There's quite a few letters about overpayment of both Civil and RAF pay I didn't realise he was still paid by the Post Office


(http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/4607/img0233fa4.jpg)                    (http://img129.imageshack.us/img129/2069/img0226xw0.jpg)

wow im hooked,,sorry photos are back in my parents atic and we are all in cyprus.....

im trying my hardest to find out more about old  mr albert edgar fisher "the lunatic" my grampy
im fifnding it hard to find his service records online all my dad remembers withought looking at the paperwork home is that he lied about his age when going into the army he said he was born in 1898 the war started in 1914 and he was in,,,,,a welsh regiment my dad thinks,he had a few medals but the only 2 my dad can remember was the mons star and the little blue and gold lapel badge?
if anyone got any ideas it would be most appreciated,thye wrote a full page on him in the south wales echo around the 1996-7 timeabout being the youngest who fought in the great war that was still alive(see earlier post)

just read this about the old contemptables

"Do you remember when you were tired, hungry and wet through?" he asked. "You looked through your pockets and found that you'd got one fag left. But did you smoke it? Did you hell!
You broke it in two and gave half to the man next to you."

true real men

Try looking on here Sofa  http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/medals.asp  you can trace medals from ww1 and other stuff.



A mine laying flight of my Grandads

(http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/5655/img0275od6.jpg) I'm assuming "gardening" means mine laying, 2 X mk iv 1500lb to be dropped at position 5342N 0509E



 (http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/6798/img0276ar4.jpg)
 shiver is some form of radar jamming equipment, and "M" could be Mandrell another form of electronic counter measures that was being tested
(http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/8995/img0277qx9.jpg) in cloud at 500ft, dropped to 300ft before climbing to 700ft, in the dark at 176mph!!

(http://img363.imageshack.us/img363/6210/img0279wa6.jpg)

Landed safe and sound

thnx mate i been looking there for the last few days lol,,,
ive found out quite a bit from the medal roll of honours list

my grampy was we think born in 1897 but told the army he was born in 1896 to get in the army.
ive found his date he was entered 27/12/1914 (2 days after xmas) he left on the 12/9/1919
also he won the victory cross,the british medal,and the star,the star im sure is the somme star
he was in the royal wesh fussiliers his number was 11433 private fisher.....

after checking with my dad
my grampy died in 1985 this would have made him 111/112 if he was still alive.
and in 1985 this we think after the south wales echo did some research around that time made him the youngest to fight that was still alive in 1985 he was we think 88/89...
im just emeiling the south wales echo to see if i can get the story....

thanks wadder for getting me started,
oh, one thing my dad allways re-membered about my gramps is that he didnt talk a lot about the great war,but the one thing that stuck in my dads mind is that my grampy told him on numerous occassions of how he was behind enemy lines and he was creeping about and he saw a german having a shit,and my grampy shot him,
this made me giggle and then i thought about what the germans familly would have felt to get that letter that thier son/brother/father had been killed


just off to email the echo and see if i can get some pics.....

This is a truly awesome site to find stuff on  :)up

The crew were nearly the same for every flight :-Captain Sgt Berry, Navigator P/O Hargreaves, 2nd Pilot/Bomb Aimer Sgt Wood, Eng. Sgt Pattison, Wireless Operator Sgt Hubbard.  Gunners  Sgts:- Grimes, Forman, Newbold, Ray, Crouch, Stainton, Sherrard-Smith and Newton.

(http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/9765/033wn4.jpg)

There were two or three Gunners to a plane and they often changed, the Wireless Operator sometimes acted as mid gunner.The rear gunners had the worst of it and had the highest death rates. As I have been looking on websites concerning the RAF I found a story of a squadron finding that some of their rear gunners were taking flashlights with them to lure in enemy nightfighters so that they could have a pop at them !

I don't know if any of my Grandads crew are in this photo.

(http://img45.imageshack.us/img45/6448/img0307jr4.jpg)

But the bloke  at the front was shot down over France and spent the rest of the war hidden in a cafe owned by a Frenchman called Rene. (probably)


(http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/5774/img0293ea7.jpg)

Oh dear

(http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/9265/006ih2.jpg)

At some point he must have become an instructor, the back of this photo says "Con Flight Instructors Pocklington '42-'43" thanks to google I've found out that "Con" or conversion flights were for training crews of medium bombers to Fly the Halifax.
He's back row far left..

Still PMSL here, fantastic find wader!

(http://img383.imageshack.us/img383/5536/img0306rj5.jpg)

Front row 2nd from right, he's got a peaked cap now.


(http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/9315/img0303et0.jpg)

There's a few knuckleheads in this one, see the two Padres in the centre of the back row, that's where the term sky-pilot comes from.


(http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/5295/img0284gg5.jpg)

I thought "Nickels" were some sort of incendiary or flare but it's the nickname for the propaganda leaflets they used to drop.

(http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/3876/img0295hb7.jpg)

Using Pollux and Polaris to find his bearings.

Just spent my dinner hour looking through some of the special collections at Leeds Uni, the amount of personal war letters, books, medals, accounts of the various wars is stunning.

A family donated Mr Ellis's collection to the University he was part of the support unit that looked after soliders when they got injured, funnily enough he was based on a train that was kitted out to look after them, the pics are interesting of him and inside the train, along with menus for the injured soliders and lots of letters :) fun fun

He left Pocklington in March 43 and moved to Rufforth, not got much from when he was stationed there.

(http://img129.imageshack.us/img129/1787/img0227he6.jpg)
Seems to be differing views on when he was promoted.

This from Bomber Command website.

No. 1663 Heavy Conversion Unit was formed at Rufforth in March 1943 and tutored Halifax crews until disbanded in late May 1945. However, on November 1, 1944, most Bomber Command OTU's were transferred to No. 7 Group, Training Command, although the stations and functions continued much as before. Eighteen Halifaxes were lost flying operations from Rufforth, one being from No. 1663 Heavy Conversion Unit.


 (http://img73.imageshack.us/img73/3753/img0300dg6.jpg).
He kept up with the sporting theme although he seems to have kept his uniform on. He's middle row 2nd from left.

Like a lot of servicemen in the war he never spoke of his experiences to his family so I don't know what he did next as his paybook says his last base was Rufforth but he must have gone somewhere else as he didn't leave until '46.
I found a scrap of paper with Chakulia written on it.Chakulia is a town in India which has an airfield and was used in WW2 so it may tie in with this inoculation card and berthing card for a ship but other than that I've not got much to go on.
(http://img236.imageshack.us/img236/8463/img0218id9.jpg)
(http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/1043/img0261sd9.jpg)

(http://img236.imageshack.us/img236/7239/img0220hb9.jpg)
This photo could be in India , it looks hot enough and there are Indian men there although my Grandad isn't on it there must be some reason he kept it,
 

(http://img376.imageshack.us/img376/6449/img0222ak4.jpg)
this one also looks like it could be in hotter climes.

At the end of the war he went back to work for the Post Office.

(http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/3102/img0263pu4.jpg) (http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/9986/img0264uj0.jpg) (http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/909/img0265qg3.jpg)
His release book and instructions on remobilisation if it kicked off again.


(http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/4074/img0258fi9.jpg) (http://img376.imageshack.us/img376/4074/img0223ts6.jpg)
There is a list of the medals he was awarded:- Italy Star, Aircrew Europe Medal, the 39-45 star and the Defence Medal. No-one in the family has ever seen them or heard any mention of them and they weren't in his house when he died which is a bit baffling.

My three favourite finds,

(http://img118.imageshack.us/img118/987/img0267fg7.jpg)
I've been having a bit of trouble finding out what he got mentioned in despatches for, mainly due to the fact that the London Gazette didn't publish a paper on January 1st 1945 and I can't see his name mentioned when I search the Gazette website.

(http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/4884/watchzh2.jpg)   (http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/6738/watch2kq4.jpg)
I can't believe it still works!


(http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/3838/002nb4.jpg)
 
Finally my favourite photo of him, a bit dog eared but it adds character I think.



Thanks for reading.

Fantastic, thx for posting, great find!!!

awesome awesome awesome .... you must be very very proud, and rightly so.

+1

And thanks for sharing

Geo

What he said.

Tremendous stuff Wader, really interesting.

The Omega will run forever, lovely old watches them. I used to have a similar one, from my Grandfather & wore it all the time.

I'm glad it was of interest folks, yes I'm really proud of him, reading the experiences of other aircrew while I've been trying to research what he did made me realise how brave they all were. I think i'll take diks advice and get in touch with the wartime memories website maybe one of his crewmates' relatives is searching for what they got upto during the war. I'm just fortunate that he kept hold of all this stuff.
Kev, did you find out about your mums Hargreaves clan? , luckily my Grandad still had his wits about him when he returned and left Burnley as quick as he could  ;) so I don't really know anything about that side of the family.


If there are a lot of fans of this type of stuff I might post a few of my dads Royal Navy photos from the 50's and 60's. He was in the Fleet Air Arm and has some great pictures of ships and planes and the like.

He's got loads at his house but here's a couple that I have.


(http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/6992/img0246cg6.jpg)
HMS Victorious, early 60's I'd guess and the planes could be Buccaneers and Sea Vixens.


(http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/3749/img0248vs7.jpg)
My Dad in his early 20's at Lee-on-Solent

Bit of an update,
I got in touch with this website http://www.archieraf.co.uk/archie/index.html and was contacted by the sites owner who said she had been in touch with a former member of 102 squadron who was at Pocklington around the same time as my Grandad. I got an e-mail off him yesterday and although he doesn't recall my Grandad he can name some of the men in the photos and his last flight before he moved to another squadron was with Sgt Berry who was the pilot of my Grandads plane.
His name is Ed Cooke and the story of that last flight for 102 Squadron is here http://www.archieraf.co.uk/archie/talesfromtheboys.html