blonde poker forum

Last night's PKR open c. $14k prize pool (465 runners), last 2 tables and slightly above average chips. No great reads on either villain as not been at table long

1. Should I raise pre flop to find out strength of original raiser's hand or as I did, peel off a cheap flop

2. On flop I lead out to 'find out where I am'. Should I be calling his all in. I put him on one off the following 66,77,tt (unlikely), T9,T8, 67, KT,QT,JT or poss a bluff . Don't put him on JJ+ as he would likely have reraised pre flop

Table #11534609 - Tournament #7384736 Table #44
Starting Hand #572490935
Start time of hand: 07 Nov 2008 23:57:37
Last Hand #572489543
Game Type: HOLD'EM
Limit Type: NO LIMIT
Table Type: TOURNAMENT
Money Type: TOURNAMENT CHIPS
Blinds are now $1,500/$3,000
Button is at seat 6
Seat 1: fitfinlay - $63,384
Seat 2: taperman - $94,547
Seat 3: lellehed - $43,064
Seat 5: labellamaffia - $35,412
Seat 6: besa007 - $56,225
Seat 7: harrir - $74,651
Seat 8: fingersmith - $54,508
Seat 9: hero - $65,148
Seat 10: db112 - $66,480
Moving Button to seat 7
fitfinlay posts ante of $300
taperman posts ante of $300
lellehed posts ante of $300
labellamaffia posts ante of $300
besa007 posts ante of $300
harrir posts ante of $300
fingersmith posts ante of $300
hero posts ante of $300
db112 posts ante of $300
fingersmith posts small blind ($1,500)
hero posts big blind ($3,000)
Shuffling Deck
Dealing Cards
Dealing [As Th] to hero
db112 folds
fitfinlay raises to $6,000
taperman calls $6,000
lellehed folds
labellamaffia folds
besa007 folds
harrir folds
fingersmith folds
hero calls $6,000
Dealing Flop [Tc 6s 7h]
hero bets $12,000
fitfinlay folds
taperman raises to $88,247 (all-in)

Looks fine to me, now call.

yep.

agreed

range please sir longy of PHA stardom :). I dont think this is clearcut and prefer a CR if we have decided to play for stacks.

Tend to agree with this I think.

I'm not exactly sure what it is you're asking but if it's whether or not to call his all in then I say but of course. However, I've had this similar scenerio and found that the person jumping all in had slow played his pckt. pair and I ended up out on my arse.  ;madasahatstand;

I was wondering primarily whether the call of the all in was clear cut or not, but also whetehr maybe reraising pre flop may have been a better option as I would find out the strength of the original raisers hand better and likely chase out the villain causing me the 'problem' post flop

against this range you're slightly better than a 3/2 favourite and that's before we even allow for oppo's bluffing % so it's not even close

even if we add into his range an unlikely and strangely played JJ, QQ, KK and AA it's still a 50/50 and a very easy call

What about this Sir Martin of 500bb spewy pots

---
  77,220  games     0.004 secs    19,305,000  games/sec

Board: Tc 6s 7h
Dead: 

   equity    win    tie          pots won    pots tied   
Hand 0:    45.371%     40.78%    04.59%             31493         3542.50   { AsTh }
Hand 1:    54.629%     50.04%    04.59%             38642         3542.50   { AA, TT-66, ATs, KTs, QTs, JTs, T8s+, 98s, 87s, 76s, ATo, KTo, QTo, 98o, 76o }

Think i am being generous biasing his range to give us less equity than we actually do have.

lol, i was being genuinely nice, ur just being a git :)

and no way am i letting you have that for a range im afraid. I dont think he calls a minraise form utg+1 with half of that playing so shallow.

Lol was a joke alex but you know that anyway.

If we tighten his range somewhat we lose on the swings what we gain on the roundabouts as his 2pr/str8 hands disappear. as does his weak top pair hands and i haven't included any random bluffs in there. I think you are going to struggle to give me a range where we aren't pot stuck, but I invite you to try.

On flop I lead out to 'find out where I am'. Should I be calling his all in.

This is quite a horrible and very ironic thing to say dawg. So you lead to find out where you stand - your oppo goes all-in - and now you ask whether you should call?? How has betting out allowed you to discover the secret of where you stand, when you don't know what to do when your oppo responds? Simply speaking, you just don't know where you stand. So the motivation and the strategy behind the original bet was a mockery. This is the important lesson of your hand dawg.

What makes the betting out for info strat more ridic here is that you have no info on the other players so you will be pretty clueless whatever their response. What you need right now is info and to some degree the c-bet size of your oppo will give you that. So by not checking and allowing your oppo the chance to at least size his bet means that betting out for information actually deprives you of information, and thats pretty ironic.

With 20/465 left, landing at this table and calling off 10% of your stack to ep action and unknown players with A-10 is not very good imo. The fact that you hit tptk and are unsure what to do tells you why.

Fair enough but i only called 5% of my stack as I was already BB so I was putting in 3k in to a pot of 19k to see a flop. I also meant more re finding out where I was with the original raiser. The original caller was always going to be a bit of an unknown which was why I wondered whether reraising pre flop would have been better because original raiser would either fold or go all in (in all likelihood) making my decision easier? and also the caller would almost certainly fold IMO

Plz call.

Yes, my bad ref the bb. The problem with betting out here is that nobody thinks you are strong enough to call an all-in, and so the all-in that follows is pretty standard. The move carries with it loads of fold equity with the current stack sizes and tournament situation, and the pot is well worth the risk. So what I'm saying is don't bet out to find out where you stand, especially when the temptation for your oppos to shove is overwhemling. Bet expecting the shove. Bet to induce the shove. Whatever you want. But betting to find out where you are here is not good, because the big pot reward for your oppo's deceit means you will never get any sort of truthful answer.

The fact that the opener folds makes the problem easier for you because an over-pair is less likely, but still possible. K-10, J-10, 8-8 & 9-9 are very possible while 2 pairs are not, and the fact the guy goes all-in makes 8-9 and sets pretty unlikely imo. So there's a lot of reason to call. But in this situation you should be betting to snap this 2nd guy, not betting to wonder. You are more in control if you do this imo.

Makes a lot of sense, thanks

After a bit of thought I did call and he had the hand for some reason I felt he might have (don't know why) i.e. 66 but at least I wasn't muffed

Tht fact tht ppl see leading out from sb/bb into an aggressor as weak they can shove soooo wide on u and usually the leader has like 44 here.  They lead to 'find out where they are' before folding to any action.

I guess u called and he had 66 this time? gg.

Stop trying to be a superstar with this 9th level analysis.

oh, btw i just stoved every reasonable range on the planet out of boredom and once you lead out you are 100% pot stuck.

I dont think ppl operate at your level knave. not on pkr.

he's got q10/k10 lol. call

Well worked out except for reply 16 above yours lol :)


pls see above :)

call for me