blonde poker forum

Ok first level so not alot happened, just got names to go by as far as reads.

6 handed and you are C/O with  Kd 4d, its a 10k starting stack and you all have that. 25/50, you limp after 2 limps before you and everyone else limps, family pot.

Flop is   Kh Kc 6c

Checked to you and you bet 250. Button is Paul Parker who flats it and everyone else get's out of the way.

Turn    Kh Kc 6c 4s

Beautiful, you bet 700 and he just flats it once more.

River   Kh Kc 6c 4s 8c

You now check to him, he bets 1200 and you make it 2900. He dwells a moment before jamming. You do what?

Also thoughts on play up to this point and the river check..... Any questions too..

how far did your jaw drop open when he jammed?

great play, inspired river check, he cant have K6 prolly air :dontask:

snap his head off imo.

i thought that at first but his 4 bet the river for value range is kinda small most probably. i have no idea how often if ever he is doing a flushy bluff here???

i like the river check, i would never have thought of it tbh :(

I've only played Omaha with PP but in that he always liked to keep pots small unless he had the goods.

It'd be a very tricky fold though..one I can't make. (even though it might be the right thing to do in this hand (results orientated, I know))

I call.

I ain't good enough to fold here (as the guy I called last night with third pair, J kicker, much to his disgust, will testify to!)

Flopped boat and you turned a bigger one? Can't really see how you can fold here

its K6,66 or total bluff. How well does he know you Rookie?
k6. possible but sick
66. very possible but he has to put you on a rivered flush to value shove you here.As the hand played out this is the favourite.
bluff. Again unless he knows your game really well i think this is unlikely.

did u call and he had k8 ? thats wot i think he would have

 Ks 8s

Its a tough lay down but against PP in the 1st level its the correct play.

On the Flop Paul either has either -  K x or 66.

With 66 its a reraise on the flop or defo on the turn.

No way is he moving all in on the river with a flush or a bare K.

I would guess K 6 but K 8 is also possible.

a very tough lay down and calling against a lot of players would be correct. 

I give PP more respect in this situation.

Nasty.

Assuming I bothered to think about it I may well pass.  With 2 beers in me I call the bet and a cab...

:)

Marvellous trouble in the stable!!

LOL. But what do you do in this situation?

I call

However PP is one of the few players I consider passing to, just because he doesn't put his tourney on the line in Level one without the absolutes. Just not his style. He's smallball and accumulation rather than huge early moves.

I can't see anything unusual in your play on the flop/turn either as you ask

If this is ME vs Paul its a snap as he is going to 3 bet jam for value pretty light vs me as we always play ridic hard against eachother.

But its not, its me vs Paul... Sooooooooo...

what a horrible hand. Only ever played with Paul once so don't really know his game. would he do this with 88 or 66? Your check on the river may have made him think 88 or 66 is good. I have to call.

I couldnt fold this, 66 he has if i was to guess considering how its played out...

Like you say he's not pissing his chips away in this situation. However I think he could easily have 88 here, since he kept it small till the river. He should also know that you are also highly likely to be playing the hand light.

would he call flop and turn with 88?

got to be K6 or 66 surely.

Ax clubs?

Against someone like Rookie I don't discount it

Sigh, I wanted Flushy to reply. Nevermind. Thanks for your comments guys.

This situation did not actually happen. It happened the same until the river when it went check check. I was a bit disappointed at this as I couldn't see there was any way Paul could not bet the river. If he has clubs he must value bet and if he has a big K he must value bet. But this did not happen, I showed my house and scooped and he flashed KJ as he mucked. I can't believe he has checked behind here tbh. By checking behind surely he is missing value from his hand? He is putting me on either full house (which I cant have once I check, can I?!), or KQ/AK, in which case I surely raise preflop?

Either way he has got out of this cheaply I guess. The reason I posted this is Jim Reid and another guy at the table couldn't believe how much value I missed on the river, whilst another guy on the table was on my side and liked the check. When I told him I was check raising for value he couldn't understand why I would do that and then asked me the question... What do I do if he shoved? I said i'd probably snap and hi five the dealer, and again he couldn't believe it. It's a tough situation and I think both hands have been played differently to how most people would play them.

Any further thoughts anyone/additional comments to above?

were you seriously playing level 1 of a main event 6 handed?

Yep twas ridiculous, 24 runners so instead of three 8s and room for 6 reserves at a push, we started with four 6's. Because there were really gonna be so many alternates turn up for the ME, especially considering we kicked off half hour late anyway!!

of course there are going to be 16 street walk ins at £750 a pop in the first two levels!


lolol you couldn't make it up

Lalit was there at the start and sat there reading a magazine for two hours before buying in.

And Jeff (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=593) Buffenbarger (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=593) only turned up after Dave (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=96) Courtney (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=96) phoned him to tell him it was now a one day event (Jeff couldn't make the Sunday).

It's all about the check on the river imo(apologies if thats just me stating the obvious).We need to work out how he's percieved that river check i think it's a wierd line for you to take to bet flop and turn then check the river it looks like you're giving up on a bluff then when you check raise the river he's probably thinking wtf ?

I think from the line you've took he probably thinks you dont have a house otherwise surely you would bet the river hoping he would raise if he'd got there with a flush so you can get max value.I think he's putting you on a flush so i think we can include Ax for nut flush in his range therefore imo his range is Ax,66,88(i think this is in his range),K4,K6,K8.

I think i Call !!

but 3 x 8 seems more feasible than 4 x 6 surely?

anyway, back to the point. Great check on the river against most, but PP is not most is he? Pretty canny reader of spots.

Is it a great check i'm not so sure ?

If he has the nut flush and we check raise a lot of players would just flat call with that board whereas if we bet out again then they will mostly raise with nut flush 

I don't raise with a nut flush in Pauls spot if I were to bet 3 streets. When I bluff I do try and think what I am forcing out you know! And when someone calls me twice and the flush gets there its kinda hard to throw a third bullet when there is nothing I can logically force out of the pot. I figure he will flat me with nut flush if I bet the river, but if I check, he will now v-bet the river with his hand and HAVE to pay off a virtual min raise meaning I get twice as much. Most times anyway!

If you want to raise me on the river here with a flush when i've thrown 3 barrels then believe it or not I am winning 85% of the time.

Wasn't having a go rookie and i also wasn't just saying that in relation to this one hand.You and paul are both good players however at any level there are weak players and i just ment for checking against a weak player not for this situation sorry should've explained that a bit better.I don't see how he checks there tbh so you played it well against this oppo in this spot just wierd that he didn't bet it.

I would actually say it opposite to tighty and that it's a great check against paul but not against most players.

I know you're not having a go monda. Appreciate all comments. Well most...

Paul is a terrific player

Against a weak player, Rookie checks the river and they fire with KJ 100%, value betting. then call a re-raise mostly, I think

Against Paul, Rookie has fired two barrels and when he checks the river it is brilliant play to check behind. Not sure why or how he does, but it is terrific isn't it?

is checking behind on the river with KJ here not a pretty standard play?  There's a lot beating us at this point and I don't think I'm betting.

A lot of decent/average type players who make a nut flush here will think they've got you and that you've fired 3 with trip K and ship it in with there flush thinking you wouldn't play k4,k6 and that you would just muck that pre so you in there mind would only have K8 or more likely a better king

Results orientated imo. If I have KT there is it so brilliant?

So my check to you on the river indicates I must have either a flush, FH or KQ/AK?

I would bet KJ there. I think its a standard value bet there if I am checked to on river

PP is far better than me!

so yes its results orientated to say the check is brilliant but my regard for PP is such that I err towards it being a good check rather than missing value on his behalf

It's the fact that he's a better player that checking is a good play by rookie since if pp bets which imo he should then as rookie said he can value raise him where pp has to call even if he is sure he's losing.But i don't think checking against most players is a good play and i've explained why i think that

Just because there is alot beating us doesn't mean I have to have it. Look at betting patterns, HOW can my check mean that I have one of the above hands? My limp preflop surely discards AK, this means that KQ is surely the only hand I check on the river here that is winning vs you? And even then I prolly raise pre, no?

It is much more likely from his check on the river that rookie would have a worse k and has slowed down and that rookie is the one thinking there's not much he can beat so pp should be erring more towards rookie having a worse king than that he's now decided to check a monster after betting 2 streets ?

what do u rooks if this hand really played out this way?

He said snap call, sigh do keep up

I think your plan to check raise with your hand is good.  If I was in PP's seat however I'd be considering whether you'd decided to just check call with KQ, KJ, KT, Kx or a small flush given that he's come along with you all the way.  That said, the play being analysed here is way beyond my capability level, and I'd probably check behind just because I tend to be cautious (maybe too much so) in that kind of position.  

Yeah probs snap.



I certainly wouldn't, and I hope most players wouldn't want to check a flush when they bet their draw two streets. What is the point in that if you can't value bet it?

parker is weak/tight "checks behind when his hand is clearly good" it wasnt in this case but it clearly was. check only good vs someone capable of a float imo

we know with parker that he has trips minimum here so surely a large value bet here is the best.

I think vs PP, if you fire two streets and small CR river he'll most likely not pay you off (what can you actually have at that point?). So better to vb bigger on the end like Wick says imo. Vs theoretical shove over CR, it probably is a fold vs Paul, people like Jim Reid, Jeff B, deffo snap. Against these two, I like the river check/raise a lot more precisely for this reason, with PP I think he is far more likely to fold when behind and when he jams, far more likely to be ahead of you than these two when they do the same.

This element of the original post puzzled me.
Paul Parker was identified as being a solid player and for someone of that level to shove when he has so much fold equity would suggest he has the nuts.

But then I'm barely plankton in considering plays at this level.

I would fold to the hypothetical shove from Paul - doesn't have less than K8 almost 100% of the time

Prefer going for pot sized value on the river as I would be even less convinced that Paul would call a check raise as I would be of him betting his own hand for value, given the flush got there. There's only really 2 likely hands that you could call a bet from him with that he beats (K9, K10 and these would be v marginal calls) and given his conservative (and thinking) style, a check behind wouldn't surprise me.

i deffo wouldnt fold the river if action went as stated. 66 and 88 make up too much of his 4b value shove range, add some combinatronics by holding a king and its a ridiculous fold imo. As played, i think pp is prolly too passive to make a river CR optimal rooks, v aggy opponent its deffo best line.

OK. Rooky's first question is would you fold to a river jam? And I've read a number of opinions that say prob yes. What? WHAT? I don't get it at all. How on earth can you justify deciding to play a really speculative hand like K-4 in the first place if you muck it on a K-K-4 board.
I would only ever fold this hand if I made a pact with myself to insert two 25 chips into my anus every time I looked down to see  Kd 4d in the future. I don't like the limp with the hand myself, but now you're involved that's it you can't fold. Reasons given for folding include the oppo's range so early in a big event. I don't care whether my oppo was the whole FT Team, with or without Clonie, and we're playing the first hand at the World Series ME FT after a 16 year break, I'm still hiring the trapeze act from Circus Circus to fling me into the middle clutching my chips. He can very probably have 8-8 or 6-6 here.

Moving on to the second question about the river check. I think it's horrible Rooky. I haven't dismissed your logic but I just don't think it makes sense for this particular situation. Although I don't agree with the K-4 fold I can see the thinking of people. It's early and people want to settle in etc...so they get kinda cautious when heat comes. Folding the 3rd nuts kinda cautious. So why would your oppo bet here in such cautious times and risk inviting this nuts-folding heat upon himself? I would say your oppo thinks you either have a King or a flush the way the hand has been played. Does he think you fold either to 1 bet? If he does bet, and that's a big IF, he will insta-muck every single hand you beat when you raise. So you win just a little bit more. He will obv call with the two hands that crush you and on those occasions you lose your whole stack. So why check? You either lose your stack or win a little, and if he checks behind you lose value and give the table free info at showdown. I would just bet and throw him the opportunity to do loads of funky things. Your ability to actually win more chips is much greater if you bet and you still lose the same if you're beat.

wow tldr

lol. I remember when I was 18 there were a few guys at school saying that about Hamlet just before we went into our English A-level. I think they failed in the end.

Were they the boys from class 2B? Or were they from another class?

http://www.holdemmanager.net
NL Holdem $0.20(BB) Crypto Game#6615410233

Texasbro ($23.29)
Davidfyqe ($12)
Jobi ($25.97)
Adeeb0505 ($2.92)
Fra200321 ($16.79)
tkaagh ($8.76)

Texasbro posts (SB) $0.10
Davidfyqe posts (BB) $0.20

Dealt to Davidfyqe Kd 4d    an obvious fold of course..
Jobi raises to $0.80
fold, call, call, call, fold,

FLOP ($3.40) Kc Ks 4s

I do know ....

Overbet the river imo

No, not 2b.

but tbh mate, i think you could edit that lot to 3 sentances max.

Mantis taking English A level, is the least surprising thing I have ever heard.

I swear to God I could have made it so much longer. And I know you believe me.

esp against parker, but generally against anyone, and esp at this stage of a tourney, i don't like the attempted ck-raise, you've taken the lead on the other streets, you know he ain't floating so has some kind of big hand, be it a king, a smaller house or a flush, and the hands that u think will value bet that u beat are generally hands that will call (at worst) pot sized bets on the end. the danger is, as u did, missing value if a tight player decides to ck down his kkk or flush haing got cold feet on the river.

if parker shoves i may well fold this hand....if i'm in parker's shoes i probs ck behind when u ck