blonde poker forum

Live MTT

8 left, seven are paid

325,000 chips in play

blinds 1,500-3,000 going 2-4,000 in 2 minutes

Button is short-stack 18,000

tight, passive, open limps a lot, hasn't pushed to date

Hero in SB with 45,000. Two big stacks on table, rest much of a muchness around 40-50k

So unopened the button pushes

Hero looks down at  Ac Tc

The BB is locked down and laddering, not going to get involved without a big hand

Are you taking the short-stack on here, in light of his playing style?

Is there an ante?

nope.

Is he the kind of oppo who limps with QJ in this spot or does he have enough sense to know should be jamming QJ?

I think this is a much harder spot than if we were playing online in which case we would snap villains head off.

I would say call but your brief description of the button player has thrown me a little bit. Is he the sort of live donk who would limp the button with weaker aces and pairs etc/only shove with 1010+. If yes then fold and just keep pounding unraised pots as its your button next hand.

If you feel he will shove most hands that he should be shoving here then jam.

Basically this is a lot more read dependant imo than most decisions on here that are mostly mathematical.

He has open limped a lot irrespective of position, raise frequency is low. I would say he wouldn't jam as wide as most would here.

Sitting on my direct right I have heard him turn round to his girlfriend and say "I could just get fifth that's £250 that would be ok wouldn't it?"

Then he pushes on the button next orbit round....

Whereas a usual pushing range here into the blinds  is Any ace, any pair, any two paint, maybe suited connectors, maybe any two...his pushing range here is a lot narrower than that

Hence the thread!

why is button at 18k? if he's been blinding away to this level then I may be passing this as he's been sat waiting for a monster, if he's just taken a hit to get to this level then I probs snap

hmm. If narrower than QJ means any ace or pair then call. Only you who played with him can determine his range in this spot.

Spike vs his KK then wrap your arm round his girlfriend and tell her you'll be bringing home a lot more than £250 as he walks out the door crying

He's been waiting.

GreekStein. The life EV of wooing this particular girlfriend here with dextrous flair, restealing and general impressive chip momentum is negative.

in my thoughts

His range is narrow, narrower than most, if I call and lose I have 27,000 with an 8 handed round before I hit the blinds. Blast unopened pots to get back in it, but with far less fold equity so pick on all but the two big stacks.


correct thought process?

if his range to shove is only around top %12  - 22+,AJs+,KJs+,AJo+,KJo+  then mathematically it is close .. if you think he his wider with Ax+ QT+ then it is a definite call for me.

if all your info is correct this is looking like a reluctant pass

From what youve said here about the button, then I think you can fold, its a pretty sizeable call with only 45k left.  Its going to be close mathematically.

Next hand you have the button, and weak tight SB.

This hand you may be turning down a spot to knock a player out and chip up, but the next few hands you may garner chips far more easily.

In other words, now may be a decent spot, but better spots are on the horizon.

How fit is his girlfriend?  I think we need more information before we can make an informed decision on this one.


...and on a serious note - what do you do in this situation with a medium pair?

the girlfriend is not a factor in this decision. An eight pinter.

Medium pair question is pretty similar to what you do with A10s here isn't it?  Probably a call against the vast majority, but this fella maybe not

I'd probably call him, even though this is his first shove.

The critical question for me is, has he been below 6 big blinds at any point? Has he had 6 big blinds for the last round, but won a pot to stay at the same level, or has he just come down from 7-10BBs after leaking chips with limps and blinds, and this is a new low point for his stack.

Most peeps have a breaking point at which they will start shoving, and it's just with the tight passive players this point comes later than it possibly should.

He maybe had 7-10BBs last round and the round before that, and felt that he had enough of a stack to limp with, but now he's finally clicked onto shoving.

Having said that, if he open limped the last round with a stack of around 7 BBs in either the CO or BTN then I can find a fold here.

Had you had 8 pints?



That's what I was thinking, but I just wanted to clarify that it was the case.

No pints.

Are we playing to win this tourney or ladder, 27k with your button to come is enough to do some damage if we fail to hit what is probably a 3 outer or runner runner str8 possibilities etc. Personally I'm playing to win this tourney and I'm calling especially since we believe the BB has switched off in an attempt to ladder.

On further reflection we could actually be ahead to Ace rag here if the button also believes he only has to get his raise past you since the BB appears to be looking to ladder.

so if she was a member on blonde that would make her a BIRN (Blonde I'd rather Not) as apposed to a BILF

Even with the information given I still call here.

You've said he's limped a lot, but has he always been this short stacked? Even passive players realise they need to push at some point.

My range here is ATC. I don't think his is that, but i'm guessing 22+, A2+, paint. You beat a decent portion of that range, and are racing against a decent portion of it.

A very easy fold for me. Even if I wanted to play the hand I'm never calling. Push or fold are you're only two options cos if the bb wakes up with a decent wired pair he will be tempted to get involved, and our hand really doesn't want that complication.

Anyway, this guy has proved to us what his character is like, and also what his current thought process is. He is generally limpy and passive and he's pissing his pants he might scrape into the money. He has thankfully arrived at the sanctuary of the button with a full round of potential knockouts in front of him....and we think he's gonna suddenly wake up and turn into a SLAG that pushes with A-rag. I don't think so. Of course anyone can spaz out and do something crazy, but the point is that's not something that is so likely for this guy. It would be out of character and as such it's a bad gamble for us to take on. Add to this the fact that because the money means something to them he's not gonna want to look a fool in front of his missus and have to drive home in deafening silence...so it's just more likely he has hand like A-K than A-rag imo. Far better gambles than this for your money, like raising the button next hand into at least one known ladder man.

This hand highlights the big difference vs internet play cos I would push very quickly on-line.

I think the key here is that there's no antes so he's more likely to wait then push light on the button.

from your description it's a fold

i got this far. Its all spot on. A10s is such a big hand u cant fold here.

EDIT: ppl that want to win and understand how important is is to have a big stack when the table are looking to ladder dont fold here.

If he covers you it's a possible pass unless you're really short.

As the stacks are it's a snap his arm off I'd say.

He might be tight passive but I assume he's not totally stupid. Surely he knows that he needs to be nicking blinds at some point very soon and there aren't going to be many better spots than this.

The BB is laddering and the SB is your good self who apparently has a reputation for being a tight player. I'm jamming atc from that button and even an uber nit is jamming top 25% at least.

You're miles ahead of his range so it's an easy call.

If he beats you just be happy that he would've made exactly the same move with a hand that you were beating.

Nah Evil....that's what you know. You post your strategy thoughts on a poker forum for one and play on-line frequently for two, so this makes you much better than the average player you encounter at the casino. You prob push the button a lot in this situation and you know this is the correct thing to do. You know all this. But this guy doesn't have to be the retard people have said to only push tightish here. If it was 5-handed I think A-rag is possible...but here he still sees a choice...and he's a cautious limping into the money kinda guy.

Even if he is weak, although I can't see it, we aren't massive ourselves. Why call your chips into a flip situation when you can raise the limpers and folders and win their chips risk free any time you want?

GRRRRRR!!!!!! Mantis the guy has 6 bigs on the button on the final table! We have A10suited! thats all we need to know surely!!!!!!!!!!!!

GRRRRRR!!!!!! Mantis the guy has 6 bigs on the button on the final table! We have A10suited! thats all we need to know surely!!!!!!!!!!!!

Listen Alex, you can't get mad at ME for this guy's nittyness :)

It's not about what you SHOULD do. It's about what this guy's GONNA do. This is where internet skillz fail in the live game. The guy has just turned to his girlfriend....the person he has sex with....and told her how big his balls are....and he told her they are 5th place big. That's well small balls if you ask me. Now when he turns back to the table and faces all us mean bastards he ain't growing big bollocks and pushing with air. For all the reasons you find to push with marginal he will prob find as many reasons to be cautious. He's hoping for 5th Alex, he's not hoping to win.

At the final table last night, possible brag, I turned round to my mrs and said something about hammering every last one of these mother fuckers into the ground. I want 1st bad...so I push with all the hands you do. This guy isn't even thinking about 1st though.

He may have a suited K-Q and think it's the nutz, but I'd be surprised to see him pushing light here. Cos he knows he can achieve his 5th place ambition by folding. Anyway, even if we're marginally ahead why use your chips in this passive way at a nitty table? Tightend's surrounded by nits hoping to ladder, and it's the bubble, so the game is currently very very exploitable. If I'm putting 18k into this game it's going in raising not calling. Cos the way to beat a passive game is aggression you see. I will make that extra 18k in a couple of rounds without even having to show a hand. If Richard wants to be a better poker player he will ask himself why he can't bring himself to change gears in this type of situation and take down that easy money. Just taking a spin with a marginal hand cos YOUR range is pretty wide here is just making winning hard imo.

Internet poker makes you think what the guy said to his girlfriend is an unimportant factor. And the 6xbb is the most important factor. But it's not, cos that guy's still got to push dem chips over the line and that aint easy to do for a guy who only wants 5th, and doesn't know what 6xbb means. So don't Grrrrrr me dude :)

grrr him again alex

i admire ur thought process. but grrrrrrrr i disagree and i think other ppl reading (beginner players) wont have the same understanding of thought processes and live reads that you have, consequently will fold in terrible spots and lose money.

the result?

I called, frankly not considering enough the evidence around me, too quickly. Standard call  against most thinking oppos and online of course

He had AJ off

Pushed liberally for a level and a half from that point, never getting the double through I needed, then ladder lady woke up with AA when I went pushing once too often

grrrrr

Sometimes you're going to get owned by the top of his range, but your call was still good imo.

(http://C:\Documents and Settings\Mark Allden\My Documents\My Pictures\BULLSEYE.jpg)

By even chatting about 5th the guy is playing a game of poker very badly. So we know he's bad. Bad is not pushing wide enough here. That's what this guy does. He is bad. You guys always cus live players for being bad but never think they make blunders. Although the situation dictates pushing wide is good poker this guy isn't playing good poker.

Callers win BFH imo.

I realise I'm posting after the result has been posted... but anyways;

Calling this and getting it wrong has waaay more downside than upside for me. At the moment you have an M of 8 with the button on you next hand. Getting beat here has you on an M of 3.6 within the next two minutes and just makes you way too vunerable and is gonna force you into spots where you are going to have to shove with very little fold equity.

Absolute nailed on pass for me.

this

Grrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!

With an M of 3.6 on this weak ass table you are still fine. If people are thinking of folding A10 then imagine how many bets you can get through?

This is such an easy call it's scary. Yes it went wrong but if you're folding A10 here you deserve to be grrrrr'd.

If you ever happen to be BB to my button could you please let me know who you are. I'll have a field day.

lol matt, we're the one thinking of folding AT here, not the rest of the table. we can't say that a table is weak because we're thinking about passing a hand

You missed the grrrrr.

grrrr

I'll let you know... but those are not the positions in play here.. hero was SB so even more reason to let go of my 1,500 SB - not only is it marginal at best - and I'd rather be the aggressor with an M of 8 anyways - there's a chance the BB wakes with a monster and promptly inserts it into you.

But I'm sure you're a far better player than myself and can handle a shorter stack so I'll step out of the discussion now.

I know what you're saying but I also know what I meant.

Oh and grrrrrr.

With an M of 3.6 on this weak ass table you are still fine. If people are thinking of folding A10 then imagine how many bets you can get through?

Sorry buddy, I don't get this. If you think the table is weak ass, and people will even fold hands like A-10, why would you want to just gamble your chips and your healthy M by calling an all-in? Even if you do guess right you've still gotta win the hand, which can easily be a flip or a 60-40. If you think the other players can be exploited with raises why give them the chance to flip with you? If you think you can get on top of this game then giving these guys the chance to flip with you is a mistake imo. If this is your read of the game then calling with the A-10 is just plain spewy. It's not the most effective use of your chips at all.

Also is the Grrrr a camp Grrrr, or like an animal Grrr or what cos it's freakin me out a bit now.

If you ever happen to be BB to my button could you please let me know who you are. I'll have a field day.

Also buddy, if you were the button I'd turbo ship that A-10 staight into your eye with a Grrrr. Cos the situation would be different than it is here.

realise mantis is far from dumb and inadjustable. his reasoning for this is purely situational. If you think you could pull the wool over this wolfs clothing id take the wager. The boy might write for england but he has sound reasoning and a good pedigree.

 having said that, mantis, ur still wrong, this is a fist pump chair swirl.

That's a very fair point Mr Mantis.

I must admit that I have passed my SB A9 to a button shove before when the player's style and our stacks dictated it.

He showed A6!!!!

I grrrrr him really hard and lost all my chips to him next hand  ;D

Tighty. What do you think his limping range is with his current stack and blind levels?

I was considering his pushing range really, as that's what he's just done. Why think about the limping range? For the record it was most Aces, any two paint from what I remember, prior to this

I'm not sure it matters much what it was before cos this is a unique situation. What he limped with when he had chips to burn isn't going to mean much now he's in no fecking around territory.