blonde poker forum

First hand back after some food so posting £3 from 2 off the button. Playing £650. Image is pretty loose, been very active but not shown much down so far.

One limper, is an absolute fish. Older iranian gentleman. Not afraid to gamble with rags, hand after hand.

We look down at Qs Qc and notice that BB is counting out a raise. Dealer asks any raise. 'No' is our response. BB (playing £550) raises to £25. (Have played with him once before at another venue. From what I remember he wasn't terribly tricky or getting too out of line. No pots played against one another though). Older guy calls. We make it £85. BB calls, fish passes.

Flop  Jd 7c 3d.

Villain leads for £150.

We?......

i prolly flat pre to let fish get involved, ur never gonna make a tonne from the abc guy but fish will stackoff w tpgk type holdings which we crush. Dont squeeze out the fish. As played, tough spot v live abc players. You dont really beat anything anymore, given that i doubt hes bad enough to lead £150 with underpair to the jack and is never bluffing. So ur either flipping v a big flushdraw or ur crushed, given his bet is too big to call and reevaluate on turn, i probably fold.

the pot is too big to fold with an overpair tho innit?

lol at fold

Is he tricky enough to flat your re-raise to £85 with AA/KK?  Doubtful, i'm shipping it in here... If he has a set tough luck, more likely J + big kicker...

If he is counting out a raise oblivious to your and the button's actions, this is the first clue that he is strong. After you checked your option from posting, his £25 raise seems a lot but I don't know the dynamic of the table - was this standard? But then he goes and only calls your re-raise.

With aces most people can't wait to get it in, and probably kings for that matter. QQ, JJ, 1010, 99 or AK seem more likely here.

I see Alex's idea to keep the fish in, but at the same time I don't like a three way flop with queens. If you don't raise here, you have no help defining your hand pre-flop.

As played, if oppo is very abc and has bet into you, a fair proportion of the pot, then this suggests he remains strong.

I don't think I'm shoving here. But at the same time, it seems curious to fold. I would spend a lot of time looking at the player and talking to him. I want to know how comfortable he is with the prospect of me (you) staying involved.

If he has JJ, I think he checks it to you. If he has QQ or above, on that board he is likely to bet the amount he did. AK and an under pair would probably c-bet but not quite as much.

...having said all this, with the stacks as they are, if you call, you're probably going all the way. A tricky one, I would go with my live read here - How did it turn out?

The 6-8x raising was kinda standard for this game.

I considered flatting pre but wasn't entirely happy doing that with 2 players in the pot. I was hoping the SB would fold his 991010 AQ type hands and maybe the fish would give me a spin. He previously called £50 on an AQ6 flop w/1 club when playing about £250 with 79 clubs in his hand to make his backdoor flush and get his last £100 in on the river.

Obv that didn't happen. Be good to get a few more opinions before I post what happened....

lol@ ppls thinking QQ is an auto stackoff here 200bb deep, 9 handed in live cash.

Out of interest why would you want the player in the blind to fold 99/TT/AQ ?? Aren't these the hands you dominate that you want in the pot with you?

I would flat call pre in position here, and dont mind the pot being 3 handed...

Interesting, but I would be way more likely to stick it in live than I would online where the players are more solid. I'd probably veer towards stacking off here if there is a good chance of getting it back again from the other fish on the table.

Our SPR is less than 3

^^agree with this...

This, we may be 200bbs deep but given the opening raise is a lot more than you get online. It is equivalent to 100bb deep pot online.

As for the hand itself its an interesting spot, I am leaning towards shoving but I am finding hard to put villian on a range of hands, his donk bet just makes no sense given the size of the pot with virtually any possible holding.

Thanks everyone for all the responses.

Unfortunately I made two mistakes this hand. I acted too quickly and I didn't give villain any credit for being decent.
 
I called hoping he had a flush draw as I can't beat anything else here - he just didn't look the type of kid to lead here with air.

I moved in for the rest and he called with KK.

I obviously didn't play the hand nearly as well as I should have, maybe due to being frustrated at the pace of live cash. Or maybe I just got pwned....

I'm still not sure I like his lead though as on a day when I get out of bed on the right side I pass here.

Now we know he had KK what do we think of his lead for £150?

His lead looks smart because he got you to call. The power of hindsight..

But seriously, leading into someone who has re-raised you pre-flop makes some sense if you have mentally committed yourself to a favourable flop. After all, if he checks it to you, it might get checked back, he has lost value and you might also outdraw him. He can make up for his lack of position and his knowledge that you are also strong, strong enough to find a reason to disbelieve him and shove.

I see this all the time live and indeed have played it this way myself before.

As you said, maybe you needed more time to study him, talk to him perhaps and then work out your response to his 'donkbet'. And remember, just because he has led into you, doesn't always mean it's a bet from a donk. The great thing about poker is that there are no absolutes and there are a lot of different ways of getting the job done.

I don't think you played it badly necessarily. As multiple replies have noted it was a tricky spot. Just sigh and move on!

i think its shit. he has no idea about you and ur range for this kind of action preflop 9handed. He gets the money in good against only queens and doesnt let you bluff at a big pot w AK/AQ (which u obv wouldnt do here but he doesnt know ur decent). I really hate it when players play dumb like this and get rewarded.

I'm not dwelling on it because I'm annoyed about the hand, just think its interesting to look at all angles of it.

I don't hate the option to lead, but £150 is too much imo. It means literally the only two hands he can beat that I can shove with are QQ and AK diamonds.


Yep me too...especially when it's me that's rewarding them!

I like leading online when I've been reraised pre and I'm trapping with a big pair or have flopped a set because opponents seem to insta-raise me almost every time.

I feel if he's gonna lead at all here he should make a weak bet of like £75 which I'm likely to raise and commit myself anyway.

One day I will be Alex '25000bb stack' Martin....

i probs raise pre here even if u can see guy counting out a raise. do u know wot his reranging range is? a lot of ABC players will literally only reraise KK-AA. if he does reraise u then u can have a clearer idea of wot he may have and play from there as u see fit

be careful, good online players will raise donk leads only if you are an unknown probably fish, purely because so many idiots lead like 88 on a a/k/q/j board to "find out where they are", hence why raising is so profitable. I typically always raise donk bets until villain reveals the strength of his donk range. Players dont balance this and normally its either V strong or marginal.

I see what Alex is saying and I agree with it as a general principle. My angle on it is that I feel the KK guy has 'trap'-called hoping for a favourable flop - it looks like he is trapping with his kings and has already decided that if you have aces then so be it.

Yes, he does take away the option of you bluffing into him but as I said earlier if it's checked back that's not much use to him either.

I think I'm just trying to say that an out of position bet which has become known as a 'donkbet' doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't have any merit. The example you quote Alex with 88, yes that would be a donkbet and not something I would do on a scary board either, but this hand was KK on a J,7,x two-tone flop so I am trying to imagine where the oppo was coming from with his Kings against our hero.

I suppose this hand is quite a standard spot, the real debate to me seems whether the lead bet has any merit or not. I always reckon every option has some merit, even if it may be tiny..on this occasion I think it's less clear cut - I feel opinions would be more easily divided here, but of course quoted opinions can now be skewed because we know what hands everyone was playing - lol.

donking is dumb unless you are doing it into a person that wont know how to exploit it... and if thats the case, you dont care about balance because they wont be able to exploit you, and timeless axioms tell you that its fine to be exploitable against people that wont exploit you. Against good players, its just so hard to balance a donking range that you are either a genius or you are over-estimating the profitability of the move.... and the law of the internet dictates that the latter is much more likely to be true then the former.

As for this hand, you cant really play it like you did preflop if you aren't gonna stack off postflop, but I'd much rather just raise it first time round pre and try and get some isolation against the fish/see what the other guy does.