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Title: What to do here, heads up? Post by: MC on January 17, 2009, 09:11:02 PM Heads Up STT,
Still feeling this guy out, might have raised to 120 generally here but sometimes raise to 90 preflop. Decide to bet a big hand strong, but then we get a bad/good card on the river. Approx 850 back. What's the best action here out of position? ***** Hand 1413570733 ***** 15.00/30.00 Texas Hold'em (No Limit ) - Saturday, January 17, 2009 8:37:11 PM Holdem (Real /Tournament ) Seat 1: Noxi28 (1605.00) Seat 2: Atkinator- (1395.00) Noxi28 post SB 15.00 Atkinator- post BB 30.00 ** Deal ** Noxi28 [N/A, N/A] Atkinator- [Kc, Jc] *** Bet Round 1 *** Noxi28 Call 30.00 Atkinator- Raise to 90.00 Noxi28 Call 90.00 *** Flop(Board): *** : [Th, Qc, Jd] *** Bet Round 2 *** Atkinator- Bet 120.00 Noxi28 Call 120.00 *** Turn(Board): *** : [Th, Qc, Jd, 2d] *** Bet Round 3 *** Atkinator- Bet 360.00 Noxi28 Call 360.00 *** River(Board): *** : [Th, Qc, Jd, 2d, Ks] *** Bet Round 4 *** Atkinator- ............ Title: Re: What to do here, heads up? Post by: boldie on January 17, 2009, 09:28:34 PM you check/ he shoves....but atleast that way he can shove with a worse hand. You bet here..he calls, you're gumped.
All depends on whether you want to bluff here or not. I do think this hand shows the importance of position when HU. I hate this spot...and not too keen on the turn bet when you're still feeling this guy out...I probably check the turn. Title: Re: What to do here, heads up? Post by: kukushkin88 on January 17, 2009, 09:36:30 PM Check call, that way at least sometimes we get the rest in when he has worse, not a nice spot though.
Title: Re: What to do here, heads up? Post by: GreekStein on January 18, 2009, 01:00:53 AM As Boldie said, I check call the turn.
Title: Re: What to do here, heads up? Post by: Cf on January 18, 2009, 01:41:55 AM I generally check preflop to try and play a small pot out of position. As it's gone you've created a big pot out of position and landed in a horrible spot.
It's really hard to say what I'd do here. Does villian usually raise with an A? Assuming he does then I probably just check/call the river. Title: Re: What to do here, heads up? Post by: MC on January 18, 2009, 11:46:39 AM I generally check preflop to try and play a small pot out of position. As it's gone you've created a big pot out of position and landed in a horrible spot. It's really hard to say what I'd do here. Does villian usually raise with an A? Assuming he does then I probably just check/call the river. If you aren't raising KJsuited oop in Heads Up STTs, I suggest you are not playing them optimally. I don't have enough info to know if he raises an ace or not, but he has raised a couple of hands so I would suggest he might. I thought if he had the straight here, he was more likely to have the 9. Quote I hate this spot...and not too keen on the turn bet when you're still feeling this guy out Maybe, but I think both plays are fine. Mix them up here perhaps check call half the time, bet half the time? It's more that the bet size is larger than perhaps it should have been. 1/2 the pot might have sufficed here and not created a "shove" situation on the river? Title: Re: What to do here, heads up? Post by: Royal Flush on January 18, 2009, 01:13:54 PM I generally check preflop to try and play a small pot out of position. As it's gone you've created a big pot out of position and landed in a horrible spot. It's really hard to say what I'd do here. Does villian usually raise with an A? Assuming he does then I probably just check/call the river. If you aren't raising KJsuited oop in Heads Up STTs, I suggest you are not playing them optimally. I don't have enough info to know if he raises an ace or not, but he has raised a couple of hands so I would suggest he might. I thought if he had the straight here, he was more likely to have the 9. Quote I hate this spot...and not too keen on the turn bet when you're still feeling this guy out Maybe, but I think both plays are fine. Mix them up here perhaps check call half the time, bet half the time? It's more that the bet size is larger than perhaps it should have been. 1/2 the pot might have sufficed here and not created a "shove" situation on the river? It's been a while since i pounded these but raising KJs oop used to be terrible, play in position nothing else and reap a ridic strike rate. Title: Re: What to do here, heads up? Post by: Cf on January 18, 2009, 01:17:36 PM I generally check preflop to try and play a small pot out of position. As it's gone you've created a big pot out of position and landed in a horrible spot. If you aren't raising KJsuited oop in Heads Up STTs, I suggest you are not playing them optimally. Note that I say generally, it depends on my opponent and how the game has been going, and the current blind level. But usually if the button is willing to let me see a free flop I'm happy to take the oppurtunity, and good luck to him putting me on a hand. I find position in these things is so important that I strive to play almost all pots in position, with the actual cards being a minor consideration. Title: Re: What to do here, heads up? Post by: MC on January 18, 2009, 02:06:15 PM Note that I say generally, it depends on my opponent and how the game has been going, and the current blind level. But usually if the button is willing to let me see a free flop I'm happy to take the oppurtunity, and good luck to him putting me on a hand. I find position in these things is so important that I strive to play almost all pots in position, with the actual cards being a minor consideration. Yeah fair play, sorry didn't mean to critisise That sounds like a good strategy, and it's def one I employ too...but I have a cut off line where I'll raise if they limp....something like 77+, AT+, KJ+ ... to me these hands are just too strong...although admitedly can create problems such as the one in this hand Thanks for ya replies :) Title: Re: What to do here, heads up? Post by: boldie on January 18, 2009, 02:33:07 PM I generally check preflop to try and play a small pot out of position. As it's gone you've created a big pot out of position and landed in a horrible spot. It's really hard to say what I'd do here. Does villian usually raise with an A? Assuming he does then I probably just check/call the river. If you aren't raising KJsuited oop in Heads Up STTs, I suggest you are not playing them optimally. I don't have enough info to know if he raises an ace or not, but he has raised a couple of hands so I would suggest he might. I thought if he had the straight here, he was more likely to have the 9. Quote I hate this spot...and not too keen on the turn bet when you're still feeling this guy out Maybe, but I think both plays are fine. Mix them up here perhaps check call half the time, bet half the time? It's more that the bet size is larger than perhaps it should have been. 1/2 the pot might have sufficed here and not created a "shove" situation on the river? It's been a while since i pounded these but raising KJs oop used to be terrible, play in position nothing else and reap a ridic strike rate. It still is. Title: Re: What to do here, heads up? Post by: MC on January 18, 2009, 02:42:11 PM It's been a while since i pounded these but raising KJs oop used to be terrible, play in position nothing else and reap a ridic strike rate. Oops missed Flushy's reply. I accept your opinions, but I personally disagree that it's as bad as you guys are suggesting. Against weak players I have no problem raising up KJs. Maybe against good players I wouldn't raise here, but against your standard fish?? What's your opinion if a person limps and you have KQs, AJs or 99? Title: Re: What to do here, heads up? Post by: AlexMartin on January 18, 2009, 04:47:55 PM hate inflating the pot so big this shallow oop on the turn. as played id probs use one of those moronic blocking bets and hate my life.
Title: Re: What to do here, heads up? Post by: MC on January 18, 2009, 06:23:14 PM hate inflating the pot so big this shallow oop on the turn. as played id probs use one of those moronic blocking bets and hate my life. Yeah, that sounds good to me... Title: Re: What to do here, heads up? Post by: gatso on January 18, 2009, 07:07:48 PM Still feeling this guy out, might have raised to 120 generally here but sometimes raise to 90 preflop. this bit interests me. why would you make it 120 generally? surely way too big here Title: Re: What to do here, heads up? Post by: Royal Flush on January 18, 2009, 07:55:17 PM What's your opinion if a person limps and you have KQs, AJs or 99? Check. If the guy is good then i might raise OOP but generally people are bad so you don't have to rely on hand values, you can just outplay them. Title: Re: What to do here, heads up? Post by: MC on January 18, 2009, 08:03:50 PM this bit interests me. why would you make it 120 generally? surely way too big here Pretty standard for an out of position raise. If you're playing a calling station who calls a raise with any two on the button, I raise 4x with my premium hands. Maybe KJs doesn't qualify, but you might as well get them to put in as much as possible with their 95 offsuit... Interesting Flushy, will try out checking those kinda hands oop more often and see how it works out... Title: Re: What to do here, heads up? Post by: boldie on January 18, 2009, 08:09:32 PM this bit interests me. why would you make it 120 generally? surely way too big here Pretty standard for an out of position raise. If you're playing a calling station who calls a raise with any two on the button, I raise 4x with my premium hands. Maybe KJs doesn't qualify, but you might as well get them to put in as much as possible with their 95 offsuit... Interesting Flushy, will try out checking those kinda hands oop more often and see how it works out... but you don't know yet whether the guy is a calling station..you only just sat down and are still feeling him out. 120 is too big and KJ is not the hand to do it with. Title: Re: What to do here, heads up? Post by: MC on January 18, 2009, 09:36:08 PM but you don't know yet whether the guy is a calling station..you only just sat down and are still feeling him out. 120 is too big and KJ is not the hand to do it with. Yeah man, I getcha. Have taken advice on board...In the hand, I checked the river intending to call whatever he bet, like all of you suggested. He checked back and mucked (sadly on boss I can't discover his cards)... I wondered if there was any argument for like a 250 bet on the end, to get value from all the Queens or worse Kings that might call? Title: Re: What to do here, heads up? Post by: Rupert on January 19, 2009, 04:42:54 AM lol wat. raising KJs here is standard i'd say - i'd 4x it tho. flops fine, check turn, as played i'd bet river small and fold to a raise - still get value from enough hands imo
Title: Re: What to do here, heads up? Post by: MC on January 19, 2009, 02:25:28 PM lol wat. raising KJs here is standard i'd say - i'd 4x it tho. flops fine, check turn, as played i'd bet river small and fold to a raise - still get value from enough hands imo I've been doing a lot of reading since this post, seems a lot of ppl consider a 4x raise with KJ as standard Will be mixing my play up! Title: Re: What to do here, heads up? Post by: ACE2M on January 19, 2009, 02:35:37 PM i agree with most of the others, early stages i just see the flop and hope to catch them out or outplay then, when a bit further on i raise 4x maybe 5x oop and 3x with position. Only ever played a lot of these up to $50/$100 so if you are playing higher maybe you need more agression early on, still don't like 3x though.
As played i check call from the turn. Slight thread robbage but what represents better value HU sngs or double your money 10 man sngs? Title: Re: What to do here, heads up? Post by: MC on January 20, 2009, 07:11:00 PM Slight thread robbage but what represents better value HU sngs or double your money 10 man sngs? Good question man. I've only played a few of these 10 man tourneys so I'm not sure what winrate you can expect. In Heads ups you have to win 52.5% of games to break even (excluding rakeback), 55-62% is an achievable winrate, and I can play on average 9 an hour 2 tabling. In double-or nothings you'd have to cash 55% of the time to break even. So you'd need to hit 58%+ winrate for them to be as potentially profitable as heads up, and I guess it depends on how many you can play an hour...I'm not sure about this... |