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Title: All Time XI Post by: GlasgowBandit on January 17, 2009, 09:47:41 PM Right folks I want you all to pick your greatest world XI.
There is a twist to this one though you can only pick on player from each country. Also Players must be played in their natural position. So lets get it under way. Bonner McGrain Elliot Rieper Rogan Di Canio Thom Moravcik Larrson Hartson Cadette Title: Re: All Time XI Post by: Colchester Kev on January 17, 2009, 09:50:06 PM Put more tobacco in your joints bandit ffs. LOL
That wouldnt beat a sunday pub 11 Title: Re: All Time XI Post by: TightEnd on January 17, 2009, 09:51:49 PM Right folks I want you all to pick your greatest world XI. There is a twist to this one though you can only pick on player from each country. Also Players must be played in their natural position. So lets get it under way. Bonner McGrain Elliot Rieper Rogan Di Canio Thom Moravcik Larrson Hartson Cadette greatest XI at football, or something else? Title: Re: All Time XI Post by: boldie on January 17, 2009, 09:52:30 PM Right folks I want you all to pick your greatest world XI. There is a twist to this one though you can only pick on player from each country. Also Players must be played in their natural position. So lets get it under way. Bonner McGrain Elliot Rieper Rogan Di Canio Thom Moravcik Larrson Hartson Cadette rotflmfao..wow..that must be the world's worst top 11list ever! Title: Re: All Time XI Post by: gatso on January 17, 2009, 09:55:04 PM rotflmfao..wow..that must be the world's worst top 11list ever! almost word for word what I was about to type Title: Re: All Time XI Post by: GlasgowBandit on January 17, 2009, 10:00:54 PM Great team I have picked. It would pump most teams.
Paddy Bonner tha man is a legend one of the all time greats. Danny McGrain easily one of the best right backs ever Anton Rogan - well its Anton. Rieper is IMO the greatest Dane ever. Paul Elliot well not many English players have made it in Italy. Di Canio - one of the most skillful players I have ever seen, wee bit crazy but a great player. Andy "the German Bomb" Thom one of the most capped players from East Germany. Superb technique and excellent pace. Lubo Moravcik was quite simply the best player I have ever see play on a regular basis. BBJ is like the Welsh equivalent to Gabbi Battistuta Larrson well no words necessary PVH was the new Robin Hood. Title: Re: All Time XI Post by: Scottish Dave on January 17, 2009, 10:01:37 PM Right folks I want you all to pick your greatest world XI. There is a twist to this one though you can only pick on player from each country. Also Players must be played in their natural position. So lets get it under way. Bonner McGrain Elliot Rieper Rogan Di Canio Thom Moravcik Larrson Hartson Cadette rotflmfao..wow..that must be the world's worst top 11list ever! Totally!!!!!! He missed out Paul McStay! Title: Re: All Time XI Post by: Geo the Sarge on January 17, 2009, 10:02:36 PM There are times I wish I wasn't Scottish.................
Geo Title: Re: All Time XI Post by: boldie on January 17, 2009, 10:03:43 PM Great team I have picked. It would pump most teams. Paddy Bonner tha man is a legend one of the all time greats. Danny McGrain easily one of the best right backs ever Anton Rogan - well its Anton. Rieper is IMO the greatest Dane ever. Paul Elliot well not many English players have made it in Italy. Di Canio - one of the most skillful players I have ever seen, wee bit crazy but a great player. Andy "the German Bomb" Thom one of the most capped players from East Germany. Superb technique and excellent pace. Lubo Moravcik was quite simply the best player I have ever see play on a regular basis. BBJ is like the Welsh equivalent to Gabbi Battistuta Larrson well no words necessary PVH was the new Robin Hood. Just how drunk are you? Title: Re: All Time XI Post by: ZZZZZZZROPE on January 17, 2009, 10:04:50 PM lol sighhh
Title: Re: All Time XI Post by: TightEnd on January 17, 2009, 10:05:07 PM Rieper the greatest dane ever, ahead of Schmeichel, Simonsen, the Laudrups and the Copenhagen Mermaid?
gg wp Title: Re: All Time XI Post by: boldie on January 17, 2009, 10:06:08 PM Rieper the greatest dane ever, ahead of Schmeichel, Simonsen, the Laudrups and the Copenhagen Mermaid? gg wp Also ahead of Frank Arnesen apparently. Title: Re: All Time XI Post by: GlasgowBandit on January 17, 2009, 10:31:19 PM Rieper the greatest dane ever, ahead of Schmeichel, Simonsen, the Laudrups and the Copenhagen Mermaid? gg wp The Laudrups. Hahahaha. Michael was a decent enough player the other one done ok in scotland but realy shone in Italy, England and Germany. Title: Re: All Time XI Post by: GlasgowBandit on January 17, 2009, 10:31:50 PM Rieper the greatest dane ever, ahead of Schmeichel, Simonsen, the Laudrups and the Copenhagen Mermaid? gg wp Also ahead of Frank Arnesen apparently. Easily. Title: Re: All Time XI Post by: GlasgowBandit on January 17, 2009, 10:33:02 PM Right folks I want you all to pick your greatest world XI. There is a twist to this one though you can only pick on player from each country. Also Players must be played in their natural position. So lets get it under way. Bonner McGrain Elliot Rieper Rogan Di Canio Thom Moravcik Larrson Hartson Cadette rotflmfao..wow..that must be the world's worst top 11list ever! Totally!!!!!! He missed out Paul McStay! Was a conflip between the Maestro and Danny Bhoy! Danny won 3 - 2. Title: Re: All Time XI Post by: DaveShoelace on January 17, 2009, 10:37:14 PM Think you missed Titus Bramble out of that squad mate
Title: Re: All Time XI Post by: Robert HM on January 17, 2009, 10:38:28 PM also missed my Auntie, she's English, any position.
Title: Re: All Time XI Post by: Nem on January 17, 2009, 10:41:52 PM Schmeichel
Beckanbeuer Moore Maldini Mackay Cruyff Maradona Zidane C Ronaldo Berbatov Weah Title: Re: All Time XI Post by: boldie on January 17, 2009, 10:45:08 PM Schmeichel Beckanbeuer Moore Maldini Mackay Cruyff Maradona Zidane C Ronaldo Berbatov Weah No Puskas? Title: Re: All Time XI Post by: Maxriddles on January 17, 2009, 10:45:56 PM Put more tobacco in your joints bandit ffs. LOL And lay off the mushrooms. Anton and Thom, lol, two of my favourite Tic players, them and Stuart Slater, Wayne Biggins, and Carl Muggleton. Title: Re: All Time XI Post by: GlasgowBandit on January 17, 2009, 10:46:52 PM Schmeichel Beckanbeuer Moore Maldini Mackay Cruyff Maradona Zidane C Ronaldo Berbatov Weah Now we're getting somewhere. A serious post at last. Decent team Nem. Not sure about your front pairing though. There was a better Bulgarian than Berba IMO. Title: Re: All Time XI Post by: GreekStein on January 17, 2009, 10:47:46 PM Not sure but along the same lines as your top XI bandit here is the best looking XI.
Schmeichel, Steve Bruce, Phil Neville, Peter Beardsley, Joleon Lescott, Paul Scholes, Ronaldinho, Luke Chadwick, Yossi Benayoun, Peter Crouch, Wayne Rooney Title: Re: All Time XI Post by: Maxriddles on January 17, 2009, 10:49:56 PM Schmeichel Beckanbeuer Moore Maldini Mackay Cruyff Maradona Zidane C Ronaldo Berbatov Weah Now we're getting somewhere. A serious post at last. Decent team Nem. Not sure about your front pairing though. There was a better Bulgarian than Berba IMO. FML, I agree with Bandit. Title: Re: All Time XI Post by: TightEnd on January 17, 2009, 10:51:45 PM Schmeichel Beckanbeuer Moore Maldini Mackay Cruyff Maradona Zidane C Ronaldo Berbatov Weah No Puskas? Berbatov over Pele? lol Dave Mackay? lololol all time XI? Title: Re: All Time XI Post by: GlasgowBandit on January 17, 2009, 10:58:42 PM Serious effort here.
Shilton (England) Beckenbauer (Germany) Maldini (Italy) Carvalho (Portugal) Maradonna (Argentina) Keane (Ireland) Hagi (Romania) Zidane (France) Giggs (Wales) Romario (Brazil) Van Basten (Holland) Title: Re: All Time XI Post by: Nem on January 17, 2009, 11:06:23 PM Schmeichel Beckanbeuer Moore Maldini Mackay Cruyff Maradona Zidane C Ronaldo Berbatov Weah No Puskas? Berbatov over Pele? lol Dave Mackay? lololol all time XI? Holy shit i's forgots an brazilian!!!!1onetwo3easy as abd!!!! Dunga instead of Mackay [X] no way was Stoickov better than Berbatov - this is a fact. Title: Re: All Time XI Post by: Nakor on January 17, 2009, 11:20:28 PM Schmeichel Beckanbeuer Moore Maldini Mackay Cruyff Maradona Zidane C Ronaldo Berbatov Weah No Puskas? Berbatov over Pele? lol Dave Mackay? lololol all time XI? Holy shit i's forgots an brazilian!!!!1onetwo3easy as abd!!!! Dunga instead of Mackay [X] no way was Stoickov better than Berbatov - this is a fact. This must be the greatest thread ever if it got Nem to post today. OP very good. Title: Re: All Time XI Post by: cambo on January 17, 2009, 11:54:33 PM rotflmfao anton rogan, stuart slater should be in that line up imo
Title: Re: All Time XI Post by: GlasgowBandit on January 18, 2009, 12:11:04 AM rotflmfao anton rogan, stuart slater should be in that line up imo Wit was up with Anton? Title: Re: All Time XI Post by: DUNK619 on January 18, 2009, 12:11:18 AM dunga lol level surely
Title: Re: All Time XI Post by: seven2unsuited on January 18, 2009, 12:21:37 AM also missed my Auntie, she's English, any position. except doggy. poor. Title: Re: All Time XI Post by: GlasgowBandit on January 18, 2009, 12:29:42 AM Just following on from my World XI of the greatests, I thought I would have a bash with some players who were not so good. Same rule applies that can only have one from each country.
Lionel Lettizi (France) Boadfoot (Scotland Karl Svennson (Sweden) Daniel Prodan (Romania) Staal Stensas (Norway) Cappucho (Portugal) Michalachenko (Russia) Vidmar (Austrailia) Van Vossen (Holland) Flo (Norway) Seeeeeeeeeeeeeeebo (Slovakia) Title: Re: All Time XI Post by: Christo! on January 18, 2009, 12:29:56 AM Schmeichel (Denmark)
Beckenbauer (Germany) Baresi (Italy) Moore (England) Zidane (France) Best (N.Ireland) Ronaldo (Portugal) Maradona (Argentina) Hagi (Romania) Pele (Brazil) Van Basten (Holland) Title: Re: All Time XI Post by: mondatoo on January 18, 2009, 12:49:38 AM Schmeichel (Denmark) Beckenbauer (Germany) Baresi (Italy) Moore (England) Zidane (France) Best (N.Ireland) Ronaldo (Portugal) Maradona (Argentina) Hagi (Romania) Pele (Brazil) Van Basten (Holland) This.It literally can't be beaten only person i might change is hagi who was immense but still.Great team Title: Re: All Time XI Post by: Christo! on January 18, 2009, 01:01:49 AM Schmeichel (Denmark) Beckenbauer (Germany) Baresi (Italy) Moore (England) Zidane (France) Best (N.Ireland) Ronaldo (Portugal) Maradona (Argentina) Hagi (Romania) Pele (Brazil) Van Basten (Holland) This.It literally can't be beaten only person i might change is hagi who was immense but still.Great team Cheers, wasnt too sure about hagi myself. Was gonna have either Campos/Higuta/Chilavert in nets then instead of Hagi maybe Laudrap Title: Re: All Time XI Post by: mondatoo on January 18, 2009, 01:08:47 AM Thing is schmeichel is better than all them but hagi and laudrup probably same level so i don't see a better option i was thinking how can messi not be in the team when he's blatantly best player in the world right now,then i clicked on lol
Edit By the way by the end of messi's career i think he'll be ahead of maradona but not now Title: Re: All Time XI Post by: Nakor on January 18, 2009, 01:11:20 AM Schmeichel (Denmark) Beckenbauer (Germany) Baresi (Italy) Moore (England) Zidane (France) Best (N.Ireland) Ronaldo (Portugal) Maradona (Argentina) Hagi (Romania) Pele (Brazil) Van Basten (Holland) This.It literally can't be beaten only person i might change is hagi who was immense but still.Great team Cheers, wasnt too sure about hagi myself. Was gonna have either Campos/Higuta/Chilavert in nets then instead of Hagi maybe Laudrap I steel the original list but add Yashin in goal. Title: Re: All Time XI Post by: Maxriddles on January 18, 2009, 01:54:22 AM Just following on from my World XI of the greatests, I thought I would have a bash with some players who were not so good. Same rule applies that can only have one from each country. Lionel Lettizi (France) Boadfoot (Scotland Karl Svennson (Sweden) Daniel Prodan (Romania) Staal Stensas (Norway) Cappucho (Portugal) Michalachenko (Russia) Vidmar (Austrailia) Van Vossen (Holland) Flo (Norway) Seeeeeeeeeeeeeeebo (Slovakia) Sorry Bandit but Rangers have had a lot more rubbish than some of those you mention, plus you have two Norwegians, neither of whom is the worst Norwegian to pull on a Rangers jersey, I raise you Egil Ostenstad. No place for Bert Konterman, Erik Bo Anderson, or Seb Rosenthal? Bit harsh on Tony Vidmar too. Title: Re: All Time XI Post by: maldini32 on January 18, 2009, 02:39:25 AM Yashin (Rus)
Maldini (Ita) Moore (Eng) Beckenbauer (Ger) Puyol (Spa) Best (N I) Zidane (Fra) Essien (Gha) Cruyff (Hol) Pele (Bra) Maradona (Arg) Subs: Schmeichel (Den) Carvalho (Por) Souness (Sco) Hagi (Rom) Puskas (Hun) Title: Re: All Time XI Post by: ChipRich on January 18, 2009, 11:26:45 AM Yashin
Beckenbauer Moore Baresi Maradona Zidane Laudrup Best Pele Puskas Stoichkov Subs. Cruyff, Hagi, Larsson, Suker, Figo, Weah, Raul Title: Re: All Time XI Post by: The Baron on January 18, 2009, 11:40:14 AM Yashin (Rus)
Beckenbauer (Ger) Moore (Eng) Baresi (Ita) Souness (Sco) Figo (Por) Best (N.I.) Zidane (Fra) Pele (Bra) Van Basten (Hol) Maradona (Arg) Title: Re: All Time XI Post by: The Baron on January 18, 2009, 11:50:21 AM And for today:
Buffon (Ita) Rafinha (Bra) Marquez (Mex) Vidic (Ser) Evra (Fra) Gerrard (Eng) Messi (Arg) Robben (Hol) Ronaldo (Por) Eto'o (Cam) Torres (Spa) Title: Re: All Time XI Post by: GlasgowBandit on January 18, 2009, 11:56:39 AM And for today: Buffon (Ita) Rafinha (Bra) Marquez (Mex) Vidic (Ser) Evra (Fra) Gerrard (Eng) Messi (Arg) Robben (Hol) Ronaldo (Por) Eto'o (Cam) Torres (Spa) 3 Manure players in there, must have hurt! Title: Re: All Time XI Post by: The Baron on January 18, 2009, 12:10:06 PM And for today: Buffon (Ita) Rafinha (Bra) Marquez (Mex) Vidic (Ser) Evra (Fra) Gerrard (Eng) Messi (Arg) Robben (Hol) Ronaldo (Por) Eto'o (Cam) Torres (Spa) 3 Manure players in there, must have hurt! I've just said ten hail mary's and asked forgiveness believe me. Title: Re: All Time XI Post by: GlasgowBandit on January 18, 2009, 12:12:31 PM My world XI today.
Buffon (Italy) Alves (Brazil) Vidic (Serbia) Marquez (Mexico) Evra (France) Messi (Argentina) Gerrard (England) Essien (Ghana) Robinho (Brazil) Torres (Spain) Van Persie (Holland) There are probably a few better players I could have had in there, but I have tried to pick a team that I think could play well together. Most fifficult position for me was the 2nd striking role. Nando is IMO the best striker in the world when he is on top form but for a partner, I wasn't sure if I wanted someone big and strong who would do a lot of donkey work for him or someone with nimble touches, pace and skill. Having decided on my wingers and midfield I decided to go for pace and speed with Van Persie rather than the brut force of someone like Drogba. Title: Re: All Time XI Post by: GlasgowBandit on January 18, 2009, 12:13:54 PM And for today: Buffon (Ita) Rafinha (Bra) Marquez (Mex) Vidic (Ser) Evra (Fra) Gerrard (Eng) Messi (Arg) Robben (Hol) Ronaldo (Por) Eto'o (Cam) Torres (Spa) 3 Manure players in there, must have hurt! I've just said ten hail mary's and asked forgiveness believe me. I'd have to do 4 whole decades of the Rosary if I even had one h*n in my team. Title: Re: All Time XI Post by: booder on January 18, 2009, 12:16:02 PM Gomes Beckanbeuer Woodgate King Mackay Cruyff Jenas Zidane C Ronaldo Berbatov Bent FYP Nem Title: Re: All Time XI Post by: The Baron on January 18, 2009, 12:17:48 PM And for today: Buffon (Ita) Rafinha (Bra) Marquez (Mex) Vidic (Ser) Evra (Fra) Gerrard (Eng) Messi (Arg) Robben (Hol) Ronaldo (Por) Eto'o (Cam) Torres (Spa) 3 Manure players in there, must have hurt! I've just said ten hail mary's and asked forgiveness believe me. I'd have to do 4 whole decades of the Rosary if I even had one h*n in my team. LOL! I got Souness into my all time XI (over Keane) so I can forgive myself - just. Title: Re: All Time XI Post by: ChipRich on January 18, 2009, 12:22:12 PM My world XI today. Buffon (Italy) Alves (Brazil) Vidic (Serbia) Marquez (Mexico) Evra (France) Messi (Argentina) Gerrard (England) Essien (Ghana) Robinho (Brazil) Torres (Spain) Van Persie (Holland) There are probably a few better players I could have had in there, but I have tried to pick a team that I think could play well together. Most fifficult position for me was the 2nd striking role. Nando is IMO the best striker in the world when he is on top form but for a partner, I wasn't sure if I wanted someone big and strong who would do a lot of donkey work for him or someone with nimble touches, pace and skill. Having decided on my wingers and midfield I decided to go for pace and speed with Van Persie rather than the brut force of someone like Drogba. uve got 2 Brazilians there m8. Title: Re: All Time XI Post by: The Baron on January 18, 2009, 12:27:20 PM My world XI today. Buffon (Italy) Alves (Brazil) Vidic (Serbia) Marquez (Mexico) Evra (France) Messi (Argentina) Gerrard (England) Essien (Ghana) Robinho (Brazil) Torres (Spain) Van Persie (Holland) There are probably a few better players I could have had in there, but I have tried to pick a team that I think could play well together. Most fifficult position for me was the 2nd striking role. Nando is IMO the best striker in the world when he is on top form but for a partner, I wasn't sure if I wanted someone big and strong who would do a lot of donkey work for him or someone with nimble touches, pace and skill. Having decided on my wingers and midfield I decided to go for pace and speed with Van Persie rather than the brut force of someone like Drogba. uve got 2 Brazilians there m8. I had this problem between Rafinha, Kaka, Robinho, Pepe, Alves, Cicinho, Ilsinho and Fernandinho. There is probably an argument for a Brazilian only world's best XI. Title: Re: All Time XI Post by: Horneris on January 18, 2009, 12:27:42 PM Evra is an absolutely shocking selection imho.
Title: Re: All Time XI Post by: The Baron on January 18, 2009, 12:30:00 PM Evra is an absolutely shocking selection imho. I know, I know, he's not even top 3 LB's in the EPL etc etc but I never see him get pwned in big games these days unlike some of the other candidates. Title: Re: All Time XI Post by: Horneris on January 18, 2009, 01:00:40 PM Srna (Croatia) Toure (Ivory Coast) Terry (England) capt. Lahm (Germany) Ronaldo (Portugal) sigh Fabregas (Spain) Kaka (Brazil) Ibrahimovic (Sweden) Messi (Argentina) i give up, this is tilting me so hard and i have work to do. Title: Re: All Time XI Post by: ChipRich on January 18, 2009, 01:27:50 PM Todays team, 1 from each Country.
Buffon Lahm Toure Vidic Ramos Kaka Gerrard Ronaldo Messi Ibrahimovic Eto'o Title: Re: All Time XI Post by: The Baron on January 18, 2009, 03:11:16 PM Ibrahimovic would make my most overrated players of all time world XI.
Title: Re: All Time XI Post by: Nem on January 18, 2009, 03:36:42 PM Ibrahimovic would make my most overrated players of all time world XI. +1 No way on this planet is he in the same class as Berbatov, and it isn't even close. Title: Re: All Time XI Post by: Nem on January 18, 2009, 03:38:24 PM Evra is an absolutely shocking selection imho. I know, I know, he's not even top 3 LB's in the EPL etc etc but I never see him get pwned in big games these days unlike some of the other candidates. IMO he is the best LB in the EPL. He has the attacking ability of Clichy and like you said he never gets pwned just like A Cole. Title: Re: All Time XI Post by: booder on January 18, 2009, 03:45:31 PM Evra is an absolutely shocking selection imho. I know, I know, he's not even top 3 LB's in the EPL etc etc but I never see him get pwned in big games these days unlike some of the other candidates. IMO he is the best LB in the EPL. He has the attacking ability of Clichy and like you said he never gets pwned just like A Cole. [ ] Your opinion is respected Title: Re: All Time XI Post by: Nem on January 18, 2009, 04:18:11 PM Evra is an absolutely shocking selection imho. I know, I know, he's not even top 3 LB's in the EPL etc etc but I never see him get pwned in big games these days unlike some of the other candidates. IMO he is the best LB in the EPL. He has the attacking ability of Clichy and like you said he never gets pwned just like A Cole. [ ] Your opinion is respected why are you trolling me? Title: Re: All Time XI Post by: Jim-D on January 18, 2009, 04:20:23 PM Evra is an absolutely shocking selection imho. I know, I know, he's not even top 3 LB's in the EPL etc etc but I never see him get pwned in big games these days unlike some of the other candidates. IMO he is the best LB in the EPL. He has the attacking ability of Clichy and like you said he never gets pwned just like A Cole. [ ] Your opinion is respected It's respected when he's 100% bang on... which he is imo Title: Re: All Time XI Post by: Scottish Dave on January 18, 2009, 04:25:03 PM Just following on from my World XI of the greatests, I thought I would have a bash with some players who were not so good. Same rule applies that can only have one from each country. Lionel Lettizi (France) Boadfoot (Scotland Karl Svennson (Sweden) Daniel Prodan (Romania) Staal Stensas (Norway) Cappucho (Portugal) Michalachenko (Russia) Vidmar (Austrailia) Van Vossen (Holland) Flo (Norway) Seeeeeeeeeeeeeeebo (Slovakia) Erik Bo Anderson Eric scored a double into Celtic one game i remember, thats why he ain't in it Title: Re: All Time XI Post by: sweet potata! on January 18, 2009, 04:27:35 PM Yashin Beckenbauer Moore Baresi Maradona Zidane Laudrup Best Pele Puskas Stoichkov Subs. Cruyff, Hagi, Larsson, Suker, Figo, Weah, Raul Hey m8 u will be fooked if Yashin gets injured u have no sub goalie or defenders for that matter Title: Re: All Time XI Post by: sweet potata! on January 18, 2009, 04:42:42 PM Today's XI (1 per country)
Buffon (Italy) Lahm (Germany) Vidic (Serbia) Carvalho (Portugal) Evra (France) Kaka (Brazil) Gerrard (England) Essien (Ghana) Messi (Argentina) Torres (Spain) Drogba (Ivory coast) Take a bow , this team would flog anyone else's !!! Title: Re: All Time XI Post by: boldie on January 18, 2009, 04:47:13 PM Today's XI (1 per country) Buffon (Italy) Lahm (Germany) Vidic (Serbia) Carvalho (Portugal) Evra (France) Kaka (Brazil) Gerrard (England) Essien (Ghana) Messi (Argentina) Torres (Spain) Drogba (Ivory coast) Take a bow , this team would flog anyone else's !!! Add Robinho and you have Man City next year Title: Re: All Time XI Post by: Longy on January 18, 2009, 05:46:01 PM All time XI
Schmeichal (Denmark) Maldini (Italy) Moore (England) Beckenbauer (Germany) Keane (Ireland) Di Stefano (Spain) Zidane (France) Cruyff (Holland) Maradona (Argentina) Pele (Brazil) Puskas (Hungary) Had to put Keane in there as the team is far too attacking as it is. |