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Title: Painful river bet by the villian Post by: Newmanseye on January 18, 2009, 12:50:07 AM Level III (25/50) - 2009/01/17 19:25:25 ET
Table '134707090 4' 9-max Seat #8 is the button Seat 2: newmanseye (4670 in chips) Seat 3: donnie 44444 (1860 in chips) Seat 4: TahoePrice (1655 in chips) Seat 5: outkicked83 (1745 in chips) Seat 6: osiris7777 (2560 in chips) Seat 7: Beni613 (415 in chips) Seat 8: Polska Jotz (1035 in chips) Seat 9: digu31 (2990 in chips) digu31: posts small blind 25 newmanseye: posts big blind 50 *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to newmanseye [9h Th] donnie 44444: folds TahoePrice: folds outkicked83: raises 150 to 200 osiris7777: folds Beni613: folds Polska Jotz: calls 200 digu31: folds newmanseye: calls 150 *** FLOP *** [Kh Ts Qs] newmanseye: checks outkicked83: checks Polska Jotz: checks *** TURN *** [Kh Ts Qs] [9d] newmanseye: bets 100 outkicked83: calls 100 Polska Jotz: calls 100 *** RIVER *** [Kh Ts Qs 9d] [Qc] newmanseye: bets 100 outkicked83: folds Polska Jotz: raises 635 to 735 and is all-in I have been my usual Hyper active self on the table and Polska have been involved in more than his share of pots, Now this river raise has me confused. Can we call with confidence? Opinions please ( btw i know i have played the hand badly ) Title: Re: Painful river bet by the villian Post by: mondatoo on January 18, 2009, 12:52:44 AM I hate the turn bet, I hate the river bet even more,Then i fold as ur literally beaten nothing
Title: Re: Painful river bet by the villian Post by: GreekStein on January 18, 2009, 12:59:17 AM Checking is ok on the flop as I assume ur checkraising, though I may just lead here anyway.
The turn bet is terrible - 100 into 600. River bet horrible too as mondatoo said. What's your thinking here? Title: Re: Painful river bet by the villian Post by: Newmanseye on January 18, 2009, 01:05:19 AM Sorry thats info you should have had, I had taken down pots with insanely small bets in to pots as had other people at the table, and given the limits anyone that had a hand was usually reraising 1.5 x the pot. its been an unusual table ( tourney ). so the bet is info / claim the pot cheap bet.
i did say i played this badly btw. The chap in question has been caught bluffing however, i had seen him float a few times to the river and raise and not be called. hence i am working through is this a bluff as usual or does he have the Jack, I discount the K and the Q as i believe i would have been raised off these early Title: Re: Painful river bet by the villian Post by: GreekStein on January 18, 2009, 01:16:29 AM To me your first paragraph reads a bit like 'everyone was betting and playing like a donk so i decided to join the party and play bad too'. I hope that isn't interpreted as harsh - I'm just trying to say that regardless of how other people were playing you should be betting as normal and trying to build the pot here, esp as so many hands can outdraw you.
On the river there are 3 possibilites. He has us beat. It's a tie. Or its an outright bluff. Normally I would overrule the last one but seeing as your betting really doesn't correlate with a normally strong hand he may be inclined to push here, especially as you say, he bluffs a lot. I would expect us to be beat a lot here or chopping but I don't hate a call - I'm just not a fan of the action that led to the river although I think I may have mentioned that lol Title: Re: Painful river bet by the villian Post by: gatso on January 18, 2009, 01:19:29 AM raise to 1034 pf and then pass to polska jotz's allin
it's the only way I can think of to play it worse pass the river as played. you've somehow got this far at the cost of only 400, be thankful Title: Re: Painful river bet by the villian Post by: EvilPie on January 18, 2009, 01:20:11 AM On the river there are 3 possibilites. He has us beat. It's a tie. Or its an outright bluff. Get away.... Well that's that sorted then ;) Title: Re: Painful river bet by the villian Post by: Newmanseye on January 18, 2009, 01:23:49 AM raise to 1034 pf and then pass to polska jotz's allin it's the only way I can think of to play it worse pass the river as played. you've somehow got this far at the cost of only 400, be thankful So your answer to the original question is? Btw i already know I played the hand badly, This I can see for myself, I was asking can we call and feel confident. Title: Re: Painful river bet by the villian Post by: Newmanseye on January 18, 2009, 01:38:24 AM To me your first paragraph reads a bit like 'everyone was betting and playing like a donk so i decided to join the party and play bad too'. I hope that isn't interpreted as harsh - I'm just trying to say that regardless of how other people were playing you should be betting as normal and trying to build the pot here, esp as so many hands can outdraw you. You are right here I did decide to "play badly" however I was adjusting to the tables, I saw chances to get in to pots cheaop with trash and possibly flop nice hands, as well as get away from hands when we are beat nice and cheap. Title: Re: Painful river bet by the villian Post by: mondatoo on January 18, 2009, 01:39:28 AM raise to 1034 pf and then pass to polska jotz's allin it's the only way I can think of to play it worse pass the river as played. you've somehow got this far at the cost of only 400, be thankful So your answer to the original question is? Btw i already know I played the hand badly, This I can see for myself, I was asking can we call and feel confident. No how could that ever be the case ? I wasn't going to say it but as greekstein says to put it bluntly playing bad because your opponents play shit is just not good mate Title: Re: Painful river bet by the villian Post by: gatso on January 18, 2009, 01:51:10 AM raise to 1034 pf and then pass to polska jotz's allin it's the only way I can think of to play it worse pass the river as played. you've somehow got this far at the cost of only 400, be thankful So your answer to the original question is? Btw i already know I played the hand badly, This I can see for myself, I was asking can we call and feel confident. answered already above, reason below you're only beating a bluff and this is not a good spot to bluff if you pass and oppo shows complete air then that's fine, they obv suck, just take their chips later when they next screw up Title: Re: Painful river bet by the villian Post by: Horneris on January 18, 2009, 02:35:21 AM check/fold the turn and the river.
Title: Re: Painful river bet by the villian Post by: boldie on January 18, 2009, 10:08:35 AM check/fold the turn and the river. This. The "Can we call and feel confident" question is nuts. Title: Re: Painful river bet by the villian Post by: MC on January 18, 2009, 11:50:12 AM If you thought there was a reasonable chance the 100 bet would take the pot down on the turn, I'm not gonna fault you too much.
But the 100 bet on the river works here approx 0% of the time, and when he shoves I don't understand why you thought you even had a decision here? You do realise your 2 pair 9's and 10's has been counterfeited right? ?????? Title: Re: Painful river bet by the villian Post by: EvilPie on January 18, 2009, 01:36:50 PM To me your first paragraph reads a bit like 'everyone was betting and playing like a donk so i decided to join the party and play bad too'. I hope that isn't interpreted as harsh - I'm just trying to say that regardless of how other people were playing you should be betting as normal and trying to build the pot here, esp as so many hands can outdraw you. You are right here I did decide to "play badly" however I was adjusting to the tables, I saw chances to get in to pots cheaop with trash and possibly flop nice hands, as well as get away from hands when we are beat nice and cheap. There's your answer. You found it yourself. I hope you passed otherwise you've made this bit up. Title: Re: Painful river bet by the villian Post by: George2Loose on January 18, 2009, 01:58:55 PM ditto most of what's been said
U beating abso nothing on river Title: Re: Painful river bet by the villian Post by: Newmanseye on January 18, 2009, 04:53:40 PM Now we all agree, we are counterfeited, the bets were too small and a host of other blunders, given the action, whats his range?
Title: Re: Painful river bet by the villian Post by: boldie on January 18, 2009, 05:23:36 PM Now we all agree, we are counterfeited, the bets were too small and a host of other blunders, given the action, whats his range? Really, who gives a crap what his range is..you can't call. Title: Re: Painful river bet by the villian Post by: Newmanseye on January 18, 2009, 05:28:52 PM Now we all agree, we are counterfeited, the bets were too small and a host of other blunders, given the action, whats his range? Really, who gives a crap what his range is..you can't call. Now i dont quite agree there, given the info we have on this player, surely we can hazard a guess at what he's got? He has played the hand ultra passively, he's got form for floating and shoving with nothing, He limped in, was passive on the flop and turn, how he shoves on the river out og nowhere... that story does not quite fit with a quality hand imho and the player tbh. so i think range here is important Title: Re: Painful river bet by the villian Post by: boldie on January 18, 2009, 05:39:19 PM Now we all agree, we are counterfeited, the bets were too small and a host of other blunders, given the action, whats his range? Really, who gives a crap what his range is..you can't call. Now i dont quite agree there, given the info we have on this player, surely we can hazard a guess at what he's got? He has played the hand ultra passively, he's got form for floating and shoving with nothing, He limped in, was passive on the flop and turn, how he shoves on the river out og nowhere... that story does not quite fit with a quality hand imho and the player tbh. so i think range here is important Ok, what does villain think about you. Calls a raise pre flop..checks out the flop...donk bets 100 on the turn and then, incredibly donk bets another bet on the river. He can think two things; 1; You have a monster but are playing the hand poorly. 2; You have nothing and are playing the hand poorly. In hand 1 he wouldn't shove on you without having it hand 2 he can have any two cards...although given the way you played it and the bad player image you have created he probably expects you to call with a counterfeited two pair. Really you are over thinking this...you mangled the hand soo bad that the range doesn't matter anymore. edit; I really get the impression that you make an incredibly spewy call here..won the hand..everybody then told you what a shit call it was and are now trying to find some sort of justification for this poor poor call...either that or someone made a poor call like this on you and you turned the tables around......either way..it's awful. Title: Re: Painful river bet by the villian Post by: Newmanseye on January 18, 2009, 05:45:49 PM Now we all agree, we are counterfeited, the bets were too small and a host of other blunders, given the action, whats his range? Really, who gives a crap what his range is..you can't call. Now i dont quite agree there, given the info we have on this player, surely we can hazard a guess at what he's got? He has played the hand ultra passively, he's got form for floating and shoving with nothing, He limped in, was passive on the flop and turn, how he shoves on the river out og nowhere... that story does not quite fit with a quality hand imho and the player tbh. so i think range here is important Ok, what does villain think about you. Calls a raise pre flop..checks out the flop...donk bets 100 on the turn and then, incredibly donk bets another bet on the river. He can think two things; 1; You have a monster but are playing the hand poorly. 2; You have nothing and are playing the hand poorly. In hand 1 he wouldn't shove on you without having it hand 2 he can have any two cards...although given the way you played it and the bad player image you have created he probably expects you to call with a counterfeited two pair. Really you are over thinking this...you mangled the hand soo bad that the range doesn't matter anymore. edit; I really get the impression that you make an incredibly spewy call here..won the hand..everybody then told you what a shit call it was and are now trying to find some sort of justification for this poor poor call...either that or someone made a poor call like this on you and you turned the tables around......either way..it's awful. No comments made, No spewy call made, infact none of the above. It was the story of how we got to this point that i found interesting, not the cards. hence the thread. Title: Re: Painful river bet by the villian Post by: MC on January 18, 2009, 06:32:39 PM This really doesn't need such analysis, it's the simplest of simple folds, but I'll humour you...
His range is simply A King that has you beat A Queen that has you beat A Jack that has you beat A Ten that has you beat/tied A busted flush draw, and is shoving purely because he assumes your ridiculous bet sizes are an indication of weakness (which they are) and will get you to fold (which you should) I calculated that it's approx 600 to call to win 1700, so he needs to be Stone cold bluffing over a quarter of the time. Bearing in mind a fair amount of hands that he is bluffing with (King rang, or Q8 or something) have you beat, there is no way you have the odds to call here. Title: Re: Painful river bet by the villian Post by: gatso on January 18, 2009, 06:44:26 PM who cares what his range is? the point of analysing hands is to have an idea of what to do the next time we're in this situation. but you don't want to ever be in this situation again so analysing his range is pointless.
the best thing you can do here is make sure you never play a hand this badly again and never get to this position again |