blonde poker forum

Live £100 MTT

Level 1 25-50

Villain 6,000 old school reasonably conservative

Hero 7,700


Villian  limps UTG, 2 further limps and Hero limps on button with  2s 2h

blinds complete/check

flop  6h 3s 2c

Checked by blinds and Villian to LAG Aggro MP limper who makes it 200

Folded to Hero who makes it 800

Villian check re-raises to 1600

folded to Hero, action on him


Given type of Villain and betting pattern, can this be a reluctant fold? Or is it a routine push?

Certainly ain't a fold, he could easily be going nuts with 77-TT and even now and then the 'old school' guys will limp with kings-aces.

Pushing isnt awful, because I can still see him calling you with an overpair a lot of the time here and you do have outs for the rare times he has 45. I actually like calling his check raise and giving him rope/reassessing on the turn.

If he turns over a straight or better set then you were just unlucky

Flat, shove turn.

I understand giving him rope, but what is there likely to be, to reassess the turn from current thoughts?

this for me.  I am never folding here.

Dunno actually, skip the reassess bit, im so used to writing the words 'reassess the turn' it just happened

This

this

when you limped botom set was what you were hoping for, you've got it so let's get those chips

Why did you make it 800 on the flop?

BTW have to say tighty you post the best hands for analysis

Hmm this is close but I don't see why fold can't be a real consideration here. Is he a decent nit? Played together before? Does he know your game?

Against a conservative villain at the 25-50 level when it's gone bet-raise-reraise in a limped pot I see him showing up with 66 or 33 here more often than a limp with AA or KK. I'm assuming he never limps utg with 45. Best case scenario is AA or KK.

One other consideration for me here is the structure of the tourney. If its really fast I felt here if not I think folding is ok.

800, I think I can get the LAG, Dave Courtney, to come along with me and am not that scared of losing him (as it happens he was intending to reraise me all in with the bare 6! until the check raise comes)


seriously the best hands?! or ironic humour!?

its a slow comp

I disregarded 45

33,66 or an overpair for me..but he checks an overpair when checked to on the flop, after limping utg? I didn't think so

At the table I seriously considered a fold given this.

Being serious you always present the OP well and the debate is always indepth, even if the hands appear at first to be 'simple'

If someone is new to PHA your threads are the best 1's for them to read imo

^^Agree with this...

I agree that he probably leads with an overpair on this flop. I can't see an overpair going mad and if he knows you at all he wont be liking Aces at all in this spot. Looks like he's limped with 33 or 66 and hit the jackpot.

It's horrible folding a set on a board like this in live poker but his hand stinks of a monster here. FWIW I dont ever remember folding a set live.

Maybe I'm completely wrong but all I have to go on is the assumption that this guy is a decent tight old guy who has played the game a bit and therefore wont be donking off here with one pair, whether it be AA or 77. If he knows how tight you are makes even more of a case for folding

Really curious to know what Flushy's decision would be.

You posted this before 7pm, so I'm guessing you were home early from Luton having pushed and run into a bigger set.

FYP
Judging by the player description, it sounds as if he's unlikely to have anything but nuts, set or overpair. He didn't lead the flop, and the reraise is unusually small for a hand like aces or kings, so I'm not completely against releasing now. Otherwise, flat-call and reassess the turn, as you are in position. If you think his range includes a smaller over-pair, then there's a good chance he'll check.

Tighty. What would you do with AA here?

The reason I ask is that your hand is only 1 higher in order of the nuts and I guess you'd be passing that. (Obviously pre flop play would probably be different but hopefully you get the drift of the question).

For me it's a shove now. I can't see the benefit of flatting to shove the turn. We're getting called on the turn by any hand that beats us and we may just possibly get a bigger set to pass now given our uber tight reputation.

A lot of people like the flat to shove the turn. Can someone please explain why this is better than shoving now?

Tighty hasn't told us yet whether this guy is aware of his uber tightness but I think we're being overambitious to think we can make him lay down a set, whether he knows or not

would need to know villain. His line is ridic terrible and strong and my new years res was not to payoff nits. actually bah f'it fold, hes never gonna exlpoit that and i think you are losing far more than he has 33/66 or 45. It sickens me that v the 2 most likely hands you have no legit redraw as i assume hes not tex enough to limp 45. All those ppl thinking luton old timers play an overpair like this, they deffo DONT, his range here is probs like QQ+.

villain is Laurence Kushner

He is deffo not limping 45 UTG

He might limp big pairs UTG but he is for sure not checking a 6 3 2 rainbow flop if checked to. Or 77+

So he can only have 33 or 66 surely?

I am not suggesting folding merely because I am apparently the most uber tight nit of all nits, but because it strikes me that this might be a rare occasion that its bleeding obvious its a fold, and I can't remember folding many flopped sets, live, ever


Of course versus donk or idiot its a shove or flat/shove fist pump it in, but assume a reasonable villain, which this is (not brilliant but not a donk) then to my mind its a strong case to fold

get it in on the flop ffs, wht else have you limped with 22? You know he doesn't have 45, and 66/33 is just as likely as 77+ here. If he has the set then so be it.

but 66/33 is far more likely than 77+ after he checks the flop against five opponents, and then min check/re-raises surely?

Laurence isn't min re-raising 77+ after a bet and a raise post flop is he?

Just because we've limped with deuces to hit a set it doesn't mean we have to stack off versus a guy who only plays 66 or 33 this way. No way he has a hand like 77 here.

Whether right or wrong glad I was the first one to buck the trend and say fold here.

lol, i thought this thread was made to find out the best way of getting a stack in?

amirite?

get it in, he would overvalue a tonne of hands on that board imo. id rather get it in now v him to stop lowcard peeling and him shut down.

I think you're being influenced too much by the fact you know you've got a set. The aggro LAG bets 200 and you raise to 800. I like the 800 bet myself because it doesn't look like a set at all. Let's say you're the one sitting there with 7-7...would the action look any different to this? I really doubt it. You don't need a big hand to be raising the LAG on the button...and the 800 looks a little on the strong side for the strength of hand you have. So despite the action as you perceive it you don't actually look massive imo.

Now if you agree you look like 7-7 and not 2-2 then this opens up a much wider selection of hands that could be raising you. I don't agree A-A/K-K is unlikely. If villain hasn't seen a big pair in time and commits to a slowplay strat he could check the flop cos he has aggro man to his left. Maybe he notices aggro man reaching for chips...so a flop he ordinarily bets he checks on this occasion?

While I think you break down all the evidence well enough I think the aggro ingredient and the 800 bet give you enough justification to get your chips in here. Even without those elements it would be a very tough fold anyway. I really don't think UTG folds his hand so you may as well shovel them in right now. No shame in going out set over set ever imo.

I'm with Mantis on this one.

What do you think Villain thinks you have? Does he always put you on a set here? If so then you can fold it..if not and he can think you have an overpair...you have to get them in.

No way.

Flatting the flop allows his range to open up a little.

I cudnt imagine poker if i had to fold sets & stuff. I do NOT want to be in THAT game.

Get it in, if ur beat move onto the next torn.

50k deepstack in Ireland in a couple of weeks? :D

Anyway I pushed

He called with 33

I still think if I had taken a bit more time to deconstruct what was in front of me I can find a fold here, the 1 time in 100 I would be able to I suppose.

Spiked the 1-outer on the turn though presumably, nice work...

Still not getting why everyone wants to jam it in here. I'm assuming a lot of people know this Laurence bloke and he's a donkey who overplays hands because info says SET!

Ok 99% of the time we are jamming sets but in this spot, rly?

Ul though tighty, not easy to fold this.

We want to jam it in here cos we have the 4th nuts. Whatever poker hand you play if you don't have the nuts you could be beat. In this hand villain calls Tighty's jam with the 3rd nuts....but HE still could be beat by 2 other hands. Does villain think for one moment that he should fold to this tight player's jam cos there's a 1% chance he could be beat? Whatever the result of this hand if you get into the habit of folding sets when you know only a bigger set is ahead you will be approaching poker with the most nittiest of mindsets and that can't be a good habit to get into. You will be folding lots of winning hands in the future, and every bluff that comes your way you could break down to being a hand that is beating you. Calling and losing here is ultimately a good thing for your poker soul.

Do you jam with AA here? The 5th nuts?

How about KK?

Just interested as to how far down the line we go before considering the action of the hand rather than solely the cards we've got?

Like I said bud, think about the other guy. Where does HE draw the line considering the SAME action of the hand?? You can't credibly say you should draw the line at the 4th nuts but not the 3rd nuts. IN SPITE of the push from Tighty after said action...villain still calls...and he was right to...but he could've been beat. Does that make his call wrong?

I had two hands live hands last night very similar to this. I held K-Q on a 3-7-K-K-10 board and faced a big river bet. I knew I could be beat based on the action but I'm not folding. Villain had 7-7. Next hand I played A-2 and the flop came 3-4-5. Based on the action I was prety certain I was beat, but still called the all-in. Villain had 6-7. Sometimes you run like that 90-stone man dude with your strong hands, but it's important to still try and run. Folding your strong hands isn't even trying to run, it's like just sitting in bed eating KFC family buckets.

Difficult to answer the A-A question considering it's a limped pot. But let's say I raised pre and UTG + LAG aggro call. I'm not folding Aces ever cos UTG could have a set, he would have to show me that set. If Tighty folds here he will go on to make lots of weak folds like the K-Q vs K-10 dry side-pot fold...cos he could be beat. 

I really disagree with you here Mantis. Obviously we aren't gonna be in the habit of laying down sets but here all the information to me says that we're crushed.

We know the sorts of hands villain plays from utg, which is basically any pair. AA-QQ which he would have limped to reraise with he bets out on the flop. As a tight player he doesn't check raise 2 opponents who have bet and raised, (especially as he knows Tighty's image) with just an overpair.  He's also too ABC to disguise his hand strength. To me his range here is only a set and being that we have bottom set I don't call here to draw to one out.

You also said in your post 'I was pretty certain I was beat' but still called the all-in. This makes very very little sense to me.

I'd bet interested to know if people think if villain bets out on the flop, tighty then raises to 800 and villain then re-raises does this indicate a set too ? Would an overpair be more likely in that situation ?

I played a similar hand set over set over the weekend and when villain re-raised my min raise with 77 and then checked KJ7 flop. I thought it was incredibly suspicious as I am hoping he has AK there and AK is pretty much always betting the flop when its checked to him. He had KK and I managed to just lose the minimum by just calling his bets on turn and river.

Does this thread show us that check-raising a set on the flop is bad as it gives away our hand or in this situation does it really not make any difference coz the chips should all going in regardless of how it is played ?

great thread to read this one..

My thoughts are that you have to approach this situation like every hand and consider the action,reads on opponents and the texture of the flop.It also helps to not only think what your opponent has here but what does he think tightend has after seeing him re-raise a LAG?
If this was some run of the mill donkament then yes i agree folding bottom set is pretty tough..
But if we consider the opponent in this situation to be at least half sharp what would he put tightend on here to make a min re-raise pot sweetner , he has to think that tightend has something of strength here surely?
So considering he is old school conservative i do not think he has limped AA or anything as strong as this,maybe 99 88 77 but why the check min re-raise on the flop which 5 people saw and on a low flop you then see [from his perspective] bet then re-raise would it make him think 77 88 99 is strong? and to check raise to boot....
For me in this situation the possibility my bottom set are beat and the fact we are in the 1st level !! this is not to hard to fold if you have any sort of thought that our opponent has any sort of thinking ability.

Great thread, think the info is there to put them on bigger set but its such a tough fold.

Interested that no-one has mentioned 44 or 55 in his range where the play could "possibly" resemble this action so far.

With the info we have on this conservative player its easy to rule out him making this play here with a small pair and gutshot

but here all the information to me says that we're crushed.

Dude, don't you think all the information tells UTG man that he's the one who's actually crushed? Bet...Tighty raises...UTG raises...Tighty knows UTG's range is pretty tight...UTG knows how strong he looks to Tighty...and yet Tighty still pushes over the top. The very same action gets even more intense when it gets back to UTG...so he KNOWS Tighty has a very strong hand. Would you fold 3-3 here?? I doubt Tighty pushes here with anything other than a set or the straight. So based on the action/image your 3-3 is beating one hand. Would you fold 3-3?? If you can't how can you fold 2-2?

The way Tighty wrote the hand up it was pretty obvious he was beat, but the problem with saying you gotta fold the 2-2 is that your line would now question calling with the 3-3, and where is that going to end?

You also said in your post 'I was pretty certain I was beat' but still called the all-in. This makes very very little sense to me.

If you hold  Kh Th and the flop comes  2h 8h 5h and an ABC player bets, raises, and then jams. Are you folding? You can very much suspect you're beat but you're never folding. Tightend has this habit of being very aware of what could beat him and when that better hand is revealed he thinks he played bad. But it is not bad to know you could be beat but still call. In his K-Q vs K-10 hand he could easily have been beat. But it's still a call.

I cannot fault this line of logic - am loving your recent posts MANTIS.
Even if i don't agree - which I most definitely do now -  i can always understand your line which is defo improving my story telling.

TBH Tighty Mantis has it pegged when he says that you are acutely aware of what beats you. It is, lets face it, one of your most exploitable weaknesses.
The fact that you pushed, would IMO mean that any "thinking" player would have to consider the fact that middle set is under threat. Was it an insta or did he at least pause for thought....?

Maybe you worded it pretty badly but whenever I'm pretty certain I'm beat, I fold. It's pretty simple really. Just because we have flopped a big hand, if we have the sense to realise we're beat then we shouldn't take the attitude 'I'm not laying this down, its a set, cant be folded so let me pay the guy off to see what I knew anyway'.

Insta call of my push.

How does one focus less acutely on what is beating you? Make a few thinner calls I suppose....

i had to fold bottom sets to nits a few times when i used to play lolfullring. no big deal really. obv you can't fold middle sets in these situations cos it's 50/50 as to whether or not you are beat.

yup and this to the other point

I think people are making light of Tighty's 800 raise. This was a raise that looked so weak that aggro man was pushing with a bare 6!! That's how weak he looked. You can't see that as a truth and in the same breath say UTG MUST be beating us. NOBODY looks strong here...so an old fox decides to look strong. It don't mean he absolutely has to have a set. That 800 bet is the key really cos it doesn't show your strength...so you get action.

Edit: If you add to this the fact that Tighty's image is indeed exploitable then to rule out the fact that his weak bet is being exploited, cos an old timer knows he can get a good reader of the game like Tighty to lay down 7-7 with a min raise, with his outs (gutshot) this would provide enough substance to make the call imo.

i agree mantis that tightend played his dry side pot hand not very well,but that was mainly because he thought that his bet conveyed strength [dry pot mucho strengtho  :)] and because of this made a bad read on a villain who over played hands who like most early on in mtts dis-regarded a dry pot bet as being strong.

In this situation it is not a bad thing to think what is beating us as long as you can think what villain is putting you on to make his bets and trust your reads of them..I would not want to dis-courage someone from thinking out a situation though as tightends initial instinct in this hand was spot on.We have to fold sometimes if it makes sense to and here to me it does.Granted villain should of read tightends re-raise as a possible hand that was beating his middle set [66 45] but the fact is tightend has bottom set and it does not appear to hard to figure that villain has 66 33 or 45 from his [tights] perspective. Taking it a level deeper and then re-raise all in figuring that he met fold 33 because he might put tighty on 66 or 45 though Ismene met be pushing the situation a bit to far in this case.

If tightend had 33 now that would be a tough fold......................

if a raise to 800 does not look strong then what does in a 5 way pot , is there something i'm missing here? is tightend viewed as lunatic who makes big pots with air/1 pair type hands? and villains min raise sweetner on these type of textures is normally a pattern of betting by a set anyhows..

Hindsight is easy and most people, with Tighty having revelaed his oppo's hand, will say ''well, i think i can fold this, a higher set did look really likely i guess''

95%+ of people get it in here, me included...

lol just lol.

Do you really think any raise Tighty makes looks weak? I think the aggro guy was either a bit of a donk or talking from the wrong end of his body.

I also think ur trying to read too much into this and create scenarios, that from the information given, just aren't plausible. Old guy just isn't the type to play anything but a BIG hand like this. He's an old nit, not an old fox. Think his name was Laurence, not Doyle.

all i want to encourage chipprince is for tightend to play out this hand/situation from villains point of view,then to me this hand begins to make sense along with available info. [conservative opponent,limp utg,5 way pot,patterns of betting-bet re-raise then min re-raise,only 1st level]
this is nothing to do with hindsight

WOW dude. From the descriptions a) Old school reasonably conservative and b) LAG aggro you know a lot about what they both would or wouldn't do. Cannot fault those readz. I don't think any raise Tighty puts in is weak, but I think raising 4x aggro man on a rainbow board doesn't look like a set wanting action. This is what talking-out-his-arse-man thinks, and this is what I think.

 ;grr;

NoflopsHomer was that worth posting? , if you do not agree at least explain why..

here is an article you should read , well thought out and written...http://www.pocketfives.com/poker-articles/asking-for-help-in-online-poker-forums-3728178

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Fair interpetation of this if he doesn't know Tighty's game but this could just be table talk too.

Unfortunately I don't think this has a bearing on villain playing a less strong hand like this.

Tighty's image isn't generally viewed in Luon as tight as he used to be IMO, certainly amongst certain players.

I still shove the flop here once i have been 3 bet against this player as i believe he may play KK/AA this way. Also as well he knows courtney would have a stab at this pot so the check raise option on the flop is gonna happen almost 100% here. Just unlucky obv he has a set.

My head hurts

note to self, grumpy's betsizes suck.